What professional ingredients are missing in a new photography business? In today’s episode, I’m joined by my fellow Dadtographers, Colin Coleman, Joe Dantone, and Matt Gruber to chat about what we learned from experience in the beginning of our photography careers. We’re sharing personal anecdotes and words of caution about what we wish we knew when we were getting started. 

The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!

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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES

Small considerations for a professional photographer (2:20)

What you learn as you gain experience (11:22)

Shooting for awards (15:47)

When you miss an important picture (19:49)

Another person’s business is not your own (25:01)

When someone doesn’t want to be photographed (28:11)

Watch out for the flavors of Kool-Aid (35:50)

Going through failures to learn (43:23)

Photography evokes a sense of humanity (51:46)

Get a cohort as early as possible (53:51)

CONNECT

Colin Coleman – @moonhoneyphotography 

Joe Dantone – @loveandlegacy_studios & @dantone_creative & @getpressurepros

Matt Gruber – @mattgruberphoto

CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER​

Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM

Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO

Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS

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Thank you!

-Dan

Review the Transcript:

Dan Moyer
Hey friends, welcome to the podcast. I’m your host, Dan Moyer. And thank you so much for being here with me on this episode. So the episode today that you’re gonna listen to is with a group of guys that are just really good, silly, wacky friends of mine. We’ve gotten to know each other really well over Facebook Messenger throughout the pandemic. And what started is a message group for if you’ve got COVID, and you need to have somebody to have your back turned into this place where we all just BS with each other about being photographers and dads and snowboarding and weddings and the stock market and so much more. We are each very different from the way we approach weddings and our businesses to our hobbies and habits. But I think that’s why we’ve constantly been in this group for the past three plus years. We got together once on a previous episode, Episode 32, which was a bit rough, and had very little direction in its scope. But it was fun nonetheless, to record with these guys. This episode, though, has focus. It all started in our dad Chat, where Colin was discussing how there’s some things that you learn as you grow as a photographer, like how to read the room and people’s energy, that one little nugget that one little conversation we had spawned an entire series of episodes on the missing ingredients to running a successful business. That is what this series is about. And what this episode which is the first is all about. This episode is a little bit silly and somewhat all over the place, but I think you’re gonna grab a few tidbits from it, and maybe just laugh along with us. So here’s me and my friends, Colin Coleman, Matt Gruber and Joe Danto. Let’s get to the show.

Dan Moyer
Boys, so here we are. First one back since episode 32. When was that? 20. Long. Last year.

Colin Coleman
Well, I remember I just remember Matt wasn’t paying attention because it’s it’s it’s we’re getting. We’re on again.

Matt Gruber
It was one before that. Oh, was it? What

Dan Moyer
do you ever put out?

Joe Dantone
Yeah, wait a second.

Matt Gruber
The other one. That was May or of 2020 20

Dan Moyer
Dad’s night out. That’s what it was. I remember Joe got a whole bunch of desserts that we ate none of that I

Joe Dantone
did and they were delicious afterwards.

Dan Moyer
Alright, so this whole episode came about because we have a collective experience of like over 40 plus years of a bunch of dudes right here in this group. And in our little dad chat one day we were talking about this like idea of what happens when you’re like brand new and you’d like do things and then as you get further along in the process like we all are you learn things. So Colin do want to share your story about how this like all kind of came about. And then we can all spit ball from there. Well, I

Colin Coleman
think it was in our dad chat. If I had to remember correctly. It was a recent wedding. And I had a it was in recently in Doylestown and had a second shooter. Basically what happened was, I remember in the beginning of the day, I saw a couple of ladies in one of the like the, you know, open rooms in the venue, good light coming on, on them. And I just like wanting to take a photo. So I remember like, kind of reaching for my camera and one of the ladies kind of just learning how to frame bolted gun. So it’s one of those things like you’re just okay, that’s fine. Prep happens after the prep my second shooter came up to me. And she was kind of kind of annoyed. What happened was, I think she was having them do like just to go. The mom and the groom basically just, you know, hugging, kissing, just like being real lovey dovey. But she felt like she didn’t, like wasn’t liking it, like she was feeling like like the the mom was very just like, standoffish after that, I think yeah. And once I went to the ceremony, and met up again, and I saw who the mom was, I connected all the dots. And afterwards, later Later that day, I kind of explained to her that not everybody fits in the same box. And not everyone wants to be just there isn’t a language to like kiss and hug and just like be on top of each other. Some people just aren’t like that. And I think she got it and clicked, clicked right away. And that was just like one of the things that I learned through just years of doing it and also like, like shooting the wrong things and just feeling like what she felt.

Dan Moyer
Let’s dive into this a little bit. Because like, it’s one of those things when you’re first starting out, you’re like looking at other people’s work, you’re looking at somebody’s website or like you buy some posing thing from some educator on YouTube. And it’s like here, here’s this like seven steps that you can go from like one to the next to the next to the next. And, and it’s like those things just don’t work for everybody, right? Like now we’ve had this discussion many times before of like, well, wouldn’t you just like no, and this is why I like to dive in really deep and know these people so I can like not make this mistake on the wedding day. It’s just it’s that layer of insurance for me to like not have to deal with like, Oh, I’m gonna say something stupid or do something Stupid where I would put people in a position that like, is awkward for them and I just do that. I just do that. But

Colin Coleman
also to that to that point once I get mad I’m sorry it’s he said to me, I wanna make a point. So she was taking shooter though she didn’t get shouldn’t have any of that time with them. Yep. So just just throwing yourself in and just like putting them in the spot like that’s, you know, you have to like, you have to read it dip a toe, and yeah, figure it out. dip a toe? Yeah, like test the water, like plant a

Dan Moyer
little seed. You can get away with.

Matt Gruber
Yep. I was just gonna say, Dan, speaking of like it, this is all related to this topic. Yeah, yes. You want to know all this stuff. So you don’t say something that just, you put your foot in your mouth. Especially when it relates to like, parents and family situations. And, like, I’m very, I’ve learned to be very nonspecific, about like, talking about even like, after we go over all of that stuff, you know, prior to the wedding, even like, on the wedding day. I still like it is ingrained in me to not be like, oh, where’s your mom? Where’s your dad? Let Yeah, because not all the time. But like, maybe I don’t know, if 25% of the weddings like parents out there, one of the parents is not there for whatever reason, you know, they passed away, they they never got along. They never met that parent. Or like labeling somebody like a grandmother or be like, no, like, that’s my, and you’re in the heat of the moment. And you’re even thinking about and you’re just like, Oh, hey, you know, we get a photo of you and mom and they’re like, Oh, my mom passed away 10 years ago and you’re like shit, yeah, yeah, so like I’m just very nonspecific all the time. Even if I see mom and dad right? They’re like, I still I can’t bring myself to say mom I will say hey, you let’s get a picture the two of you

Colin Coleman
that reminds me of the time that reminds me of the time when I brought the wrong I brought the wrong person for the first look with like a dad dad daughter first look was

Joe Dantone
Johnny Come on down. So your daughter

Colin Coleman
he wasn’t he was just there to

Joe Dantone
be tricky. Why am I doing so?

Colin Coleman
I need a backstory on that literally. Okay, so this was brand new brand new line manner. And it was it was a big thing like a shoe. We did the first week with with I think her and the groom and she came back into the dressing room and was gonna do a first look with the dad. So I went into the groom’s room, and I saw it like the oldest guy there that went along with it.

Dan Moyer
They were just like, Hey, Dad.

Colin Coleman
Hey, Dad. Do we want to see her? And she goes

Joe Dantone
why this guy called me dead? I guess I’ll go.

Colin Coleman
So sorry, leader in how long? Like last year. Like this is like 2018. So like halfway through my career. But either way, so I bring I bring him in. She turns around. There’s like the worst thing about it is it wasn’t just what you went through

Dan Moyer
the first look with like, happened.

Joe Dantone
Oh my gosh

Dan Moyer
what did she do when she turned around? She goes Oh, my dad

Colin Coleman
like, oh, shit, sorry. This got thick was happening.

Colin Coleman
It’s just a dude. Like that was there he was he was in the family. I think he might have been an uncle or something. But like, at no point. He was like, he just he’s, I tell you what, that’s how he lives his life. He must have a lot of really cool stories. A

Dan Moyer
lot of really great stories. All right, on a on a more simple version of this. Maybe a more not as ridiculous version is that like, so a good example of this is like when when my wife and I kissed them. So I’m six foot three, my wife is five foot four and half shoot her. She’d be hurt if I didn’t have that half in there. That’s why when we kiss on the lips, it looks really weird because like, I’m like looking down and she’s like, her neck is like straight up. So none of the pictures we’re we’re kissing are like ones have we used anything from but there’s just like one photo. We’re like, we’re just standing there and I’ve got my arm next to her like one of the portraits of kissing on the forehead. And it’s like Joe the not you Joe a different Joe who photographed our wedding like heat. We’re good friends. Like he knew us really well. And like he he knows like when we’re just standing around hanging around. Like that’s something that we naturally do. But it’s like, I don’t know. It’s like these little things of like, being aware of who you’re photographing and what you’re photographing rather than just like showing up doing your thing. And like blindly just going through the day, right? Yeah, cool. Yeah, Uncle out for a first

Colin Coleman
time Got it? Yeah, no, that’s, that’s it’s like it’s like a test of if you’re actually really paying attention because like the best photographer is just, it’s just people who pay attention really well.

Matt Gruber
The lesson of the story is from now on when you go to do a first look with the father of the bride, you make sure Okay, are you the father? Yes, bride, like simple picture and make sure that like,

Dan Moyer
making sure your ID at least

Colin Coleman
confirm with one other person that you’re correct. This is before you commit to it. Yes.

Dan Moyer
How you got that far down? That is the guy was just like, Yeah, let’s do this. Even when he’s standing there, like waiting for the bride. Like now

Colin Coleman
you literally I think I just like walked grabbed him put, like, brought him out of the room and put in the switch the place and did again.

Dan Moyer
Like Wait, how did you find the real dad? Then?

Colin Coleman
He was like, just outside. He was outside somewhere? I don’t know. He just he just wasn’t? I don’t know. I don’t know. It was crazy. Things happen. Weddings. All right.

Dan Moyer
So all right, wait. I’ve been in business for 13 years now. You’ve been in for like 15 years called Joe, you’re just past your 10th column. How far how long you been in this for years? Apparently, was like your first

Joe Dantone
wedding. 2018 wedding?

Colin Coleman
Hey, nine years. Thank you.

Dan Moyer
Okay, so we got a lot of experience what? What other things that like that people do you learn as you get further into this than just when you first start

Joe Dantone
out. So I think a big one, when I was starting was you’re not shooting for yourself. Because like I would focus so much on like getting those epic pictures and like, you know, wide and small people and then shooting through a ton of stuff and making it look all glitzy glamour, whatever it is. And most times, the client really didn’t even like them. They were I was just doing it for myself at that point. But, but later on, it was just like, you know, doing the stuff that I knew the clients liked, getting to know them better understanding what pictures they liked for my portfolio, so I kind of bring that to the table for them.

Dan Moyer
But there’s like a, there’s like a weird thing that happens, though, where it’s like, you shoot a lot for yourself in the beginning, but you actually suck. And like you’re not, you’re not covering your bases at all. And then you go the other way, like for like the middle years, where you’re just like shooting everything for the couple, then you like reach, then you eventually get to the point where you’re like, like a SAM herd or like a fair water Eesti who just like does whatever they want, whenever they want, and can just do their thing, right?

Matt Gruber
I think there’s, I think there’s a good middle ground, even for the people that are like, in that category that you’re naming. Like, I’m sure they still do stuff that they do not want to do. You don’t show it. But like, it’s also like how you can incorporate that part into your own style and like, make everybody

Joe Dantone
happy? Well, I think at the beginning, you’re trying to find yourself like what you actually like to shoot and how to please customers at the same time clients at the same time. So the last thing on the list is like customer service, and like really digging deep into relationships, and things like that. Whereas now it’s like you understand how important that is. So your main thing is customer service, understanding the couple their story, like what they’re all about the relationships around them. And then you’re kind of shooting for that more than you are for your creative self. But you’re doing it in your own type of way. So yeah, you you do have, you know, your boundaries, where you don’t want to take up too much time with a couple because of a picture you want to do. But we’re doing it because you know that what they like and, you know, you just understand your couples a lot more, you know, later in your career than I think you do in the beginning.

Dan Moyer
God night shots was such a big part of weddings like every, like five to seven years. Oh man, I was pulling couples out all the time. Yeah, and now it’s like only couples who who want them will like kind of make like a point to sing it. Well. Let them like be in the reception. Yep, like

Colin Coleman
Yeah, yeah. They don’t they don’t want as much as you think. And they and that’s like, the beauty of it is like they just don’t I think I think our industry and like the things that people are rewarded for our like, like the things that like if you ask a couple what’s their favorite photo? It’s not gonna be like the epic shot with like lightning and fire and rain and like a

Dan Moyer
ring on like a sparkler to hell.

Colin Coleman
And that’s just, that’s just Photoshop generative AI that’s just with that. So my

Matt Gruber
favorite sparkler and rings. Have you ever done?

Dan Moyer
Really great. I think men have actually won a fearless award like time here. Hey, hey,

Colin Coleman
don’t be jealous. Okay,

Dan Moyer
who’s got the most fearless awards in this group? Well, don’t they submitted?

Colin Coleman
I have never doubted ever and that’s probably that’s probably actually makes you win. I think until they go away though after

Joe Dantone
they don’t get listed on the front of your portfolio, they’re still in the back. But it doesn’t show that you won that many that year. It just shows what you’ve won that year. I think.

Dan Moyer
I think I have six total of three, I think. But Matt has like a bunch of those Everest awards or something. Everest think Summit, what awards were applying towards was an SLR Lounge. Didn’t they have

Matt Gruber
to do that for a while?

Colin Coleman
It was awesome. Like there was no one there. So you just went it was like, I like Bali. Look at what another award. It’s like it just keeps coming.

Dan Moyer
Colin. Why are you screaming? Screaming

Joe Dantone
swallowing the microphone?

Colin Coleman
Well, I get excited and things happen. Okay, I’m just getting

Dan Moyer
awards. Yes. Shooting for awards. Like if you look at even all the ones now like there’s definitely a look. That wins. That’s like, I don’t think it’s bad to like shoot for yourself. But I don’t know. I just feel like there’s in in the like the heyday of fearless awards, there was a lot of people who were I don’t know that they were, I feel like there were times where they were exploiting couples and photographs that they would not necessarily be super psyched to be out there. And there’s a bunch of horses

Matt Gruber
a couple in their underwear. You know, one of fearless aboard so it’s awesome. So you don’t wait, you don’t want your you don’t want a picture of you and your underwear on the internet. I’m sorry. But when I look at that, guys,

Dan Moyer
we get it. Yeah, that whole night shot thing in like the beginning was like that and the rings and like getting I mean, there’s definitely a surely there’s a whole group of of photographers who like are very detail focused and all that. But yeah, man, there’s so much that is easily distracting. Of like, what a couple of priors no desire or even cares will never make the album or will never be printed or anything.

Joe Dantone
Well like this. This past weekend. I shot a wedding. And it was an exhausting day. Oh, yeah, it was an exhausting day. I mean, there was a lot it was in Jersey City, it was all over the place. It was super fun wedding. But by the time we got to the venue, we were a little bit late, getting back to the venue, there was some confusion with some of the drivers that were getting us there. By the time we got out and did pictures. You know, I just kind of like got the vibe off the couple that they just wanted to do what we could and they really wanted to get back in for cocktail hour and I understood that like right off the go. And, you know, we’re shooting we’re shooting and you know, at that point, you know, I always tell my couples I’m like, Hey, if you guys have done just let me know you’re not gonna keep shooting but I just want you guys to have a good time. So if you’re if you’re tapped out let me know you guys can cut inside I have what I need. And you know, we shot a little bit more maitre d comes out are like art, you know, you guys want to cut loose? Yeah, sure, we go inside, sunsets coming videographer wants to pull them out for a sunset video. And, you know, I just hang out behind them and shoot through it. And then I get my picture. And then, you know, the person that was with my second shooter was like, Yo, let’s bring them around the back of the building and get the city skyline this then the other thing I’m like, they’re pulling each other to go back in the venue. I was like, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna pull them away. Like, I can get the vibe, I see that they don’t even want to be out there at that point. So, you know, let’s let them go do their thing. So it’s just kind of picking up on those little cues and reading the room.

Dan Moyer
Do you remember like a couple of years ago, maybe it was like Dano day or something who he he like took the couple out to get this like epic picture of like the sunset with a couple whatever. And then he ended up just being like, what am I doing? And he’s like, just want you guys just enjoy like the sunset on your wedding day. And so we shot photographs of like them just like hugging like he like backed off for a while. And then they all both just like started hugging and like bawling their eyes out and he like ended up taking pictures of like them, like looking at the sunset rather than like here, stand here pose look at each other and eat a sandwich. That whole like, oh, wait, are you guys the sandwich thing where it’s like you pose? It’s like that’s how that’s how you test like the picture. Really? Yeah, I don’t know. It’s like, if you’re gonna take a silhouette and you’re like you’re talking about you don’t know this. No, maybe

Colin Coleman
that could have been either. Oh, okay. Where I wish there isn’t video

Unknown Speaker
workshops, though. So like,

Dan Moyer
this was like, I think a me and Doug Benedick thing back in the day when I was first like learning. But yeah, anyway, like,

Colin Coleman
for everybody who can’t see Dan just imagine him putting his hand and like a gooseneck. And it pointed towards himself. Yeah, we have no idea where he started. And then he started making out with it. That’s what happened.

Dan Moyer
That’s what you do like so that way you can see the silhouette. It’s like okay, that the hand that’s like, like an emu or something. Yeah, I see. It’s totally going great together. By the way. It’s like this like this is where the other head is like this is where the pret Alright, nevermind, forget it. Continuing on. One of the things that I learned over the past couple years of the past 13 plus years is that it does not matter. If you missed a picture, or like miss something important if you own up to it right away. Like I used to sort of want to like wait like so a couple times I miss like a first kiss or like miss something really important. And I would like, want to hide it and then like just hope that they would sort of forget about it. By the time I deliver their pictures in like eight weeks. But then I just started owning up to it right then in there like one time two times to come to my mind. One time was when I was out, I was all the way up and like Massachusetts or something like in the Catskills and into this big beautiful venue. And I was photographing the ceremony which had like the Catskill Mountains in the background. And, like the camera just like backfocus It was like, like, it just searched like for no apparent reason. It just like was like, like ready to kiss time. And then like I was waiting for them to kiss again. And they just came in turn down the aisle. And we got down the aisle we walked in the house was like Hey, guys, I’m so sorry. I missed your your kiss like it just it. I don’t know what happened. Like, just the camera isn’t working. They’re like, okay, that’s alright, fine, whatever, you got everything else, right. And was like, yeah, like, I got really beautiful pictures of, you know, your ceremony and like the mountains in the background, blah, blah. And then another time I was up photographing, like New York country club or something. And it was just me so second and stupid night shots. I was like, finished the, the toasts. And then I went outside. I was like, I gotta look for the night shot. I gotta look for like something about the venue or like cool lights or something. And all sudden, I heard it, I heard cheering. I was like, shit. So I ran back inside. And the dad had given a surprise toast that I like, came back in to him like, like with his glass up. And I was like, quick turning my cameras on. And I ran out and I went right up to them. I was like, I’m so sorry, I missed your dad speech. I went outside, I was looking for like a picture of the two of you. And it was kind of taking them out for the picture. And it was it was terrible. Like it was just a stupid picture. I should have never even taken but they were like, okay, like, she was visibly upset. And I was like, What can I do to make it up to you and that and I just stopped and I was quiet. And and she said, Well maybe we can just get like a picture of like my dad and the two of us with our glasses. And he can like we can all just like toasts and took like a vertical picture of the three of them standing there looking at the camera, like in the reception space, terrible lighting, just with their their champagne glasses. And it was and nothing else is ever like a big deal ever. I just think like, if I would have owned up to those or any of the other like stupid little things that I’ve done or messed up where I did like I tried to hide something or, or allow time to maybe blur what they were expecting. I ate it big time later versus just like owning it up. This is what happened. I’m sorry, I messed up. What can I do to make it up to?

Joe Dantone
I think that’s a good point. Because I think if they’re expecting to see that they know what happened and they’re expecting to see it and then it doesn’t show up. They’re like, Oh, wait, why didn’t this show up? Like, why isn’t this here. But I think if you own up to it right away, when they’re in the moment, they’re there, they realize it’s probably not that big of a deal. Just saying it immediately just being like I missed that or whatever it is. I’ve missed the first case before and like you said, same thing back focus. It started hunting, it came out really blunt, like not recoverable, really blurry. And I look back and I’m like, Oh my God. And so I went up to the couple and I think it was like my third year in business. I went up to them. And I was like, hey, you know, the first kiss shot like, this is what I got the the lens back focused on me. And it’s, you know, I’m really sorry. And they’re like, it’s okay, like, we’ll just stand right here. And they were like, let me give my best man, the maid of honor. And we’ll just kiss and just get that in the first cousin were good. And I’m like, dude, oh my god. Thank god. It’s so yeah,

Dan Moyer
there’s so many times like that, that I can think of where like, I just got way, like a way lucked out. Because people were super nice to me, right? Because I didn’t, I don’t know. Because I was just like, put put people first, empathy first, whatever it is just like, like, one time, I remember when I was moving from, it was like maybe sort of the three or four years in. And I was making the move towards like trying to be less of a heavy hand like more documentary and less like, I’m going to pose this and put this here that. But I, the people who had hired me didn’t know like, they still knew old Dan old portfolio, Dan old, like I’m controlling everything. And when they got the pictures back, it was there was not a lot of what they were expecting. And that’s all the time I ate my words, but that I still, like, reached out. And like I think for some reason, I didn’t put a camera aware portrait of the couple in the wedding collection. Like I just I don’t know, I missed it for some reason. And while I was calling and she was like, I just want this picture. Like I don’t care about anything else. Like we like the pictures, but like, I just want this one. And I like usually you’re like, oh well never gonna go I’m not gonna go back and call I’m not gonna go back and release more pictures to them. And I’m doing it and she was like, Oh, these are amazing. This is exactly what I needed. Thank you so much move on. But it’s like, I don’t know, the amount of times that I’ve like make a rule like are this is the rule and I’m not going to go back and call more pictures because it’s going to open the floodgates and they’re gonna ask for this and that’s for that. I think people oftentimes if you ask them what they need to like make something up to if you get out of your own way. They’ll give you something way less than you would have done because You feel bad or something? You I mean,

Joe Dantone
I have one, I have something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. And that actually came up, came up last week in discussion with somebody else is that actually it was actually when my CPA was that, you know, going to all these workshops like everybody, I feel like the thing in the beginning was workshops, workshops, workshops, like, you know, try to take in all this info and oh my gosh, this is so successful. If I take the workshop, I’m going to be the same way very quickly, after spending however much money on workshops that I did in the beginning, I think I went to like, four or five workshops. One was, you know, a full week long bootcamp, I realized that, like, their business models not going to work for me. And you can, you can absorb education and information, and take little nuggets away. And I think that’s really valuable. And being able to do that, but going to a workshop where there’s a group of people, and you’re trying to learn somebody else’s business, and bring it back to yours, it’s not a guaranteed thing, and it’s not going to always work. I think, if you go through a mentorship where somebody digs into your business, and says, Hey, these are your goals, this is what you really want to accomplish, and they help you get to those goals, that’s way more valuable than it is spending tons of money and watching some, you know, you know, big name photographer, go out into a city and shoot and have fun, you know, doing things their way and not really explain things to you’re like, oh, my gosh, look at this guy, like he’s creating this out of this and being all, you know, excited about it. And, you know, wondering how they did it and seeing how they do it, you’re really not getting much out of it. But I think if you do like something where it’s more personable, you benefit a lot more from that. Yeah, because of the workshops, not a, you know, it’s not going to fit every single person that’s there, it’s not, you know, it’s not built for that. You can pick

Dan Moyer
up some nuggets, you can you can, there’s like not, it’s not like a one to one copy and paste, like one of the most recent workshops I went to was 2019. And the person who was running the workshop is very different approach to business than I am. And I was specifically went to that workshop for that reason. And I tried a whole bunch of the procedures and things like for maybe the six months after, and I realized that like those things work for him, because of his personality. And the things that I do work for me because of my personality. Like I think you said Joe, like, like, what works for that person’s business doesn’t work for my business, or works for mass business doesn’t work for this person’s business or whatever. And, and we’re all just like, unique, you know, like, we’re all just like, got to do our own thing. Like I think I think it’s okay to also change your business structure all the time. Like I was hard into IPs in 2018, and 2019. And now I do not feel like adding an extra night out to like do the in person sales process. And I’m willing to give up that money just so I can have more time at home. And so I like just stop doing IPS ra because I just, it’s not what I want my life to do. And I don’t want to spend that extra time even though I make more money doing it.

Matt Gruber
I have a good one. Because we’ve talked about this before. Give it to me.

Dan Moyer
Matt rent Matt.

Matt Gruber
Actually, no, we’ve specifically talked about this like circumstance before, where you know, you’re in a situation, we’ll just say any any one of us, it could happen anybody. And you’re doing a whether it’s a session or a wedding, and you’re trying to pose people, and one of them is just not into it at all. Yeah, that happened. That happens from time to time with any photographer, like just one of the people is just not into pictures. They’re too cool for school, whatever it is, they think it’s dumb, they hate you. And how you navigate that, I think, you know, comes with experience of whether it’s how you talk to them. Like sometimes there’s people where you kind of just have to like, break their stones, and just be like, listen, like you paid me to be here. I’m sorry. Like, you know, I’m not torturing you, you paid me to be here. You know, the quicker we get through this. The better. Do you

Dan Moyer
have that talk with them? Because that was like a dentist? Do you?

Matt Gruber
Are you like hey, it depends. It depends how they are like if they’re like kind of like busting my balls as if like I’m actually torturing them

Joe Dantone
earlier because he was working proper way to say it says a fool or whatever.

Matt Gruber
But yeah, like if they’re busting my balls, like I’m torturing them. I will sit there and say hey, you paid me to be here. You know is a PG podcast

Unknown Speaker
man talking about

Joe Dantone
soccer balls. Leave them alone.

Dan Moyer
Anyway, continue. Just gently remind them like hey, man, we’re this this way. You’re paying me all this money to be here for love on each other. Or what do you say what’s what’s your catchphrase?

Joe Dantone
Do cute shit. Oh, dear friend, that is totally Yeah, absolutely.

Matt Gruber
Anyway, yeah. You, you threw me off track. I’m sorry I wrecking ball navigating situations like that comes with experience. And instead of just like getting flustered and oh yeah, there are people that I’ve seen when I’ve like second shot for them or just seeing Facebook posts that people have made were like, like, Oh, I was using these on postcards, and the guy didn’t like it. And I kept trying to make him do even sillier postcards. He got even madder and it’s like, well, you have to learn to read the room. And like if he didn’t like it, the first time that you were doing it, maybe instead of, you know, having him speak like cookie monster to elicit a laugh. Maybe just try some like normal stuff of them walking or, like, figure out what’s comfortable for them. In that situation, you have to get them comfortable.

Colin Coleman
I think there’s two types of people that you pose. And some are like, it’s okay. It’s like basketball. So like jump shooters, you’re either a jump shooter, or you can shoot off the dribble. And some people can do both both. And the best people can do both. There’s times where like some couples do better with like the rigid posing. They just they feel more comfortable being told what do they want to have direction that makes them feel confident? Some people like this happens a lot to me, do not like that. So it’s to me, what I have to do is like tricking tricking them in in the shots, basically. And basically, it’s just it just like it’s just, you know, games and whatnot and make them be I don’t know, it just

Matt Gruber
it just came to me. Because we know you were talking about like there’s different ways to pose people, I start off every single session, whether it’s an engagement session, wedding, family session, whatever, I asked him, like, how much direction and pausing do they want? Because I don’t want to treat every single couple, like the previous couple. And I don’t want to assume that they want a lot of direction. What if they don’t, and I don’t want to assume that they don’t want a lot of direction if they do. So I try to start off the session just asking them that and kind of getting a feel for what they’re looking for. And most people say, Yeah, tell us what to do. But even with that, like you can quickly get a feel for are they natural together? Like do they need a lot of posing? Some people do not like they think that they do they think that they’re super awkward, but actually really cute together? And they’re very affectionate. It’s not the language Oh, it and there’s other people that like, that’s just not them. Yeah, and that’s, there’s nothing wrong with that. And you kind of just have to you can’t treat those people like you would the people that are super affectionate,

Dan Moyer
you have to like plant seeds along the way where it’s like, it’s like you’re shooting for a little bit like alright, let’s start with like, the easy stuff like, like, how often is it that like, you’ll get a couple who like you have them walk or whatever it’s like all right, like they’re just gonna walk in they talk and they’re like, sort of lost in like them walking and talking. Like remember that like when there’s like a couple walking and they’re like totally lost it and they’re fun. And then there’s like the other couple who will be walking and the moment they see you like to put the camera down from your face, they stopped like Okay, what’s next? Or like, or they’ll move away from each other if you’ve gotten like post close, and they just like move away and like Okay, what’s next? I think it’s like it’s like you just have to keep like seeing what works and then you triage things out of the way to like get to where you want to be in each of the poses, right like like I’ve got obviously I’ve like little games that like I don’t care about what they’re doing in the actual picture I want the reaction to like the weird thing that I say and I’ve been told by Lauren that my behind the camera banter is second to none so I’m I’m very excited for Matt and he says

Colin Coleman
the same thing to me it’s really

Matt Gruber
you doing it in an in an unedited interview you have not worked with or we love to see other people’s names on here you have not worked with John would you work with John his behind the camera? Enter

Dan Moyer
man now I want to know is he just like stream of conscious or is it like did you say crazy stuff?

Colin Coleman
You can’t say it on this show?

Dan Moyer
Oh yeah, that’s not me you got a problem with you saying break your balls it’s not it’s not it’s not I don’t want to know what he says that the words mean

Matt Gruber
it’s great though because it helps you I’m I’m being completely serious and being very seriously he is so incredible at getting like the coolest I’m using quotes like the groom’s or brides whoever that are like Too Cool For School. He is absolutely amazing at getting them to loosen up because instead of like they spent half the time making fun of him like but they’re laughing the whole time. But I have

Dan Moyer
a really good buddy I want a second shot with you. I didn’t really good. Did I do good.

Matt Gruber
I hope I hope you’re ready for next week because I don’t talk at all you

Dan Moyer
do plenty of talking. That’s good. But but remember I second shot for you. And then I think the words that you sent to me after a few gone through everything was like, wow, you’re just at the right place at the right time. Every time. I’m pretty sure you said that to me.

Unknown Speaker
Like something I would say, but I

Dan Moyer
actually what you said Don’t give me that that’s couple was cursing at me.

Matt Gruber
Yeah. Well, you will your producer bleep it out.

Dan Moyer
No, you can curse. It’s fine.

Joe Dantone
They were like, shut the EFF up, Joe. I couldn’t stop. They couldn’t stop laughing

Unknown Speaker
great laughing

Joe Dantone
away. And I literally had to leave. Because I they could not stop laughing.

Colin Coleman
And this is stuff you’re not going to learn how to workshop. Guys.

Dan Moyer
This is true. That’s true. All right, Colin, what other things? Are they not going to learn at a workshop?

Colin Coleman
I don’t know. You basically, we talked about everything that I had. I said the second shoot store I’m gonna go down the list and I’ll basically did like the Kool Aid like drinking the Kool Aid, like always watch out for the flavors kool aid that we’ve talked about that kind of not specifically, but like, No, I

Dan Moyer
think we could get into that a little bit more that like, there’s factions and like,

Colin Coleman
is a great word. Actually.

Joe Dantone
I love that word.

Dan Moyer
There’s factions like there’s the dark. There’s like the hag mod like super flashed up everything. There’s the natural light, there’s the dark and moody whatever.

Colin Coleman
It would be a great pitch perfect movie, just all the people just battling you know, bashing each other. Yeah,

Dan Moyer
there’s a space. There’s a space for one really quick thing before like, because I think we can talk about this a little bit because there’s like, a time where it’s like, if you just only get distracted by being in this one thing like faction before blood. It’s like, like, I dislike flash. Like I tried to play with it for a little bit. I really like putting a flash behind the couple and like rim lighting. That’s about the extent of my flash work. But like I remember had a wedding at Blue Mountain. And it’s like you go to you have a wedding, a Blue Mountain for the view, you’re on top of a ski mountain, you get the whole view of the Lehigh Valley. That’s why you get married there. And it was raining cats and dogs the entire day like full torrential downpour the whole time. So we had this ceremony indoors. And we had to do all of the couple portraits inside we did do all of the wedding party inside all the family portraits inside like everything. And it’s a ski lodge where there’s like a snack bar to my right. Like it’s, it’s nothing. And I did one of those composite pictures where you stand really still in new light. Everybody has like the intelligence Yes, yeah, the Joe Dan Jones. It’s like if I didn’t have that in my back pocket to be like, Okay, I need like a tool right now to do something, I would have been really in an awkward situation. So it’s like, I don’t know, if you just get stuck to like one line of thinking. So you’re just missing opportunities to please your clients to do something different to be happy to get out of your comfort zone. And that’s where growth truly comes from. Oh, I like that line. You was waiting. You guys laughing

Colin Coleman
It was really disgusting.

Dan Moyer
That was the perfect setup for somebody else to take something.

Colin Coleman
No, so yeah, so no, yeah, no, yeah, you need you need the tricks you need you need the tricks, you need to have stuff in your in your back pocket. So it’s good to be like a wide spectrum photographer. You know, it’s kind of it’s why I’m happy I had my flash phase. And like I feel like like whatever I need what do you laugh again? I feel like whatever I need I could do. And I think this is like a little bit of everything you said so you’re talking about like the furs and other people I don’t remember who else you said I don’t wanna give anyone Sam Sam this like you know you think of like the people that stand out and it’s like the goal of everything any kind of art anything should just be to be with the right to find your voice because once you find your voice fuck everybody else because you’re already there you already know you have a different message you have a different approach and something if you have something that’s not cookie cutter and the way to get there as long but like you have to watch out for like the Kool Aid drinks that happen along the way when you get thirsty. That was something I pulled out of my brain right that

Dan Moyer
was good. That was good. Yeah, watch out for the cooler drinks when you get thirsty so like what’s an example of like it can go in any lighting not drink

Colin Coleman
like you said like like magma and everything flash everything just because like I can’t nothing against magma. Why? No, not at all. I know.

Matt Gruber
I definitely went through a phase where like I specifically spent time like every wedding. giving myself a migraine trying to find a photo where I could use flash. Yeah, like Right. to the detriment of everything else. Yeah, like Yeah, I was so not in the moment. I wasn’t like what are you missing worrying about shooting for mice?

Dan Moyer
Yeah, what are you missing on the actual wedding day while you’re like off in la la land trying to think of like a cool picture you can build right

Colin Coleman
on Facebook later. are

Matt Gruber
absolutely yeah. It’s the most beautiful sunset in the world. And I’m like, how many flashes that brings?

Colin Coleman
And we all went through this. We all went through. Yeah, we all did

Matt Gruber
figure it out the sunsets already gone. And I’m like,

Dan Moyer
hey, what’s different across lighting from behind?

Colin Coleman
Yeah, yeah. And then I think just the bags, we used to take the weddings like gee, yeah. What are we thinking?

Joe Dantone
A roller bag and then a flash bag? It was

Colin Coleman
Yeah. Yeah, I do a whole wedding now with a shoulder bag. It’s

Joe Dantone
amazing. Now I have back problems. I do brush problems. Yeah.

Colin Coleman
But could the Kool Aid stuff like that goes farther than that? Like it’s also could be gear like, that’s like, right there. Like just, you don’t? You don’t need everything started about gear like you said.

Joe Dantone
Or one day, you don’t even get an icon.

Colin Coleman
Yeah, you get one bad photo and you just delete your lineup just dropped so much money. It’s amazing. Yeah,

Dan Moyer
but you’re right. That was not a this is exactly what happened. When I switched to Sony when I was holding your camera. I was like, This is amazing. And it was like an accumulation of like these little moments of like, being not happy with my deed. 50s. And then I was like, Alright, I’m doing I’m moving. And that’s exactly what happened today, when I was just like, it’s been this accumulation of little things over time. And also I can sell my a 10s for more than a brand new Z six two, as well.

Colin Coleman
Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s crazy. I’m gonna do the same thing. More college stuff would would be like, like, I had a studio in Philly. Like, I don’t need a studio, like, I don’t. Right now. I, you said it to first you said that you love having your business like being nimble. And I’m kind of like a grown into that after hearing you say it. And like now like my whole business, I do it out of my closet that I’m in right now. And like a kitchen island, that’s basically it. And that’s, that’s all I need. So just, you know, you don’t need all the things you don’t need the workshops. You don’t need. The Facebook groups, you don’t need to be following all the photographers, you just need to figure out what’s important to you and how to kind of connect that to the people you want to work with. And once you get that, it’s it’s a lot easier. Is that more fun? Like, like, I think I’m like, for me, I feel like I’m just entering like, what I like who I am. And I feel like it’s also like getting older. I think I started shooting weddings when I was like 2324 How old are you? 34 Now 34. Okay, so you’re talking to 34? Know, I’m so I’m so young. I don’t know, I am getting like the greys coming out of the beard now. That’s because you had kids. Yeah,

Dan Moyer
I have there’s a red mark on this side, like are one of these sides or somewhere. It was like a red mark. And before children, it was like all covered up. And that’s like the line that like I can tell like that’s the marker that keeps

Colin Coleman
you started. Keeps going back. That’s like your like the the walls at a house when you like Mark your heights. And this is Henry.

Dan Moyer
Man. Yeah.

Joe Dantone
So I think branching off what Colin was starting to say is that I think in the beginning, I think we kind of got into this industry in a different time when information wasn’t as readily available as it is now. Oh, man now where? Yeah, we’re the gray beards. So like, I think that we had to go through failures to learn. Whereas when we were getting into this, all we really had was maybe a Facebook group, if that YouTube was like not the biggest informational source at that point. We surely didn’t have the crazy workshops that give you everything upfront. But I feel like because we failed so much in the beginning, it kind of gave us thicker skin to get through a lot of the things that happened to us now and we are more readily prepared for it. Whereas I think the new people coming into the industry, they they’re just given everything they didn’t guess and check and fail and and you know, Uri try and perfect it or anything like that. I mean, everything is kind of that everything’s at their fingertips. And while yes, there are some phenomenal photographers getting into the industry right now. I feel like the the simple experience things that you give to your, your clients. It’s still gonna take them a while to build, you know, but I think that there’s so much information out there now, for the people getting into it, that when they fail out a certain thing, they’re not going to know what to do. Yeah, but I mean, we kind of had to go through that without all that information, and just kind of learn as we went. So I think that kind of gives us like

Colin Coleman
its pros and cons don’t have as much noise we Have as much noise like growing up, that’s true. And there’s no

Dan Moyer
way that gram Facebook Business was like, where I promoted everything right grew my business that

Joe Dantone
I remember putting up like 100 pictures from every wedding and tagging every single bride. Because the reach was insane, I remember I had like a 68,000 person reach, you know, at one point on my Facebook page, just because I would tag every single person in every picture. And, yeah, that’s probably what gave us such a good reach now, or, you know, a following now at this point was because we were able to do that, before social media changed their algorithms. Yeah,

Dan Moyer
there’s like, I don’t know, there’s something in there where it’s like, like, it’s valuable to say, like, you know, things were much simpler. It’s like the people who learned on film and and had 36 pictures, probably were better way better technical photographers way better at composition, and thoughtfulness and all that stuff like that. More precise, right? Like, yeah, like you had a college. I was, my, my degree is Bachelors of Fine Arts, country wedding photography. And I, like one of the projects was, you have one roll film, you have to take one photo day, we didn’t have camera phones, like, this is before razor flip phones, which was the cool flip phone. And I remember, like, you had one photo to take per day. That was it. And it’s like, you had to be super thoughtful. And I remember shooting with whole goes and pinhole cameras and all that stuff. And then you have to develop it and you’d like get past because you do the develop the film wrong, and then you really can’t shoot any of it. But it’s like, I don’t know, it’s like, there’s definitely part of that. But the you know, the the photographers who are coming in now, they also have their own strengths of like, you know, we have a column, what was it? Where were you taught, there was a while ago, where you were talking about, I think it was my first million how they like, they were all they went to like a party or something. And they’re like, all the young entrepreneurs, they’re like, thought they knew everything. The midlands of

Colin Coleman
energy, it was like the it was like, it was like kids that play basically. And basically the middle level, and that the older you got, the more it was like, like less moves, but the moves were more like efficient, kind of

Dan Moyer
yeah, like I think it’s there’s something about like, middle level was like over calculating or like two and then like, the old guys were just like, I’m trying not to sound old and crotchety that like, oh used to be so good, but like, like, things are definitely changing where, like, what worked last year, and what worked in 2021 is not going to work now. true, very true. Maybe we were set up to be adapted more because, you know, I don’t know, we had to work harder we had to

Matt Gruber
I don’t think I don’t, I don’t think that we are set up to adapt more. I think that in any industry, whoever comes in newer, like they have in many ways one leg up because they are they are fresh, they have new ideas. They know what’s more trendy, or just like popular they’re more in touch with that generation. Whereas like people like us we have more experience when it comes to the ins and outs and customer service or just like how to do things but like they’re always going to have one leg up on technology and trends and like actual skill it to some extent but you also

Joe Dantone
have to think like those are those are the people that are also within that age group of where the majority of those people are getting married. So yeah, they’re they’re definitely more into it they understand those trends and everything like that and are more efficient in marketing to that type of group of people as well.

Dan Moyer
This is like when Tony Hawk did like the 900 they remember that you guys are treating it like the 900 real All right, so like he did the 900 That was like the biggest thing right and now like tons people are doing it and they’re doing bigger stuff and doing kickflip 1080s and all that

Colin Coleman
stuff that always happens with all these all these sports like it’s like one person is so so far one person is so far ahead. There’s head everybody and then every catches up and then the next person comes out like like like like Jordan like LeBron James like like the victor guy that’s about to come into the league who’s like a seven six guy who’s plays like a point guard. Like it’s just, you know, I think it’s evolution.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, what used to be like the high level stuff is now the foundational stuff for the youngins.

Colin Coleman
Yeah true yeah, yeah, they’re gonna be coming in to the industry with

Matt Gruber
the stuff that took us like that we didn’t learn until maybe like your five or six they’re doing within like a month because

Colin Coleman
it’s already there. In the technology is

Matt Gruber
just Yeah, it’s easier to get to it’s easier like they can see it on tick tock and go try it the next day was like we were like searching the internet or talking to friends like strobist.com

Dan Moyer
Digital wedding form anybody on there, DW

Joe Dantone
Ws, four columns. Flickr, Flickr, Flickr,

Colin Coleman
Flickr. I got the last part of Flickr before died.

Matt Gruber
I did the I did a Flickr 365 Every day. That was great.

Joe Dantone
Flickr is still well and live by the way. I figured I just had I loved Flickr. I went on it like a month ago, where we were looking for stuff to like pay for everything. Now. That’s, that’s a little hidden secret of SEO. Is that Flickr still gets pumped up in image searches heavily? Yes. Oh, interesting. There’s a nugget. Whoever listened to this podcast and

Colin Coleman
until the end of you made it this point. What are you doing with your life?

Dan Moyer
Alright, Colin, finish off the rest of your list. You were at Kool Aid. What else you got?

Colin Coleman
That was like the second thing on my list. How long are we Oh, man. We like we touched on basically everything though. Like I said, like your main goal is to be to get to your own voice. We kind of talked about it like letting like what you’re shooting and like learning how to let other moments like basically like dye for bed for more meaningful, more more strong woman’s like, that’s, we kind of talked about that. That took a while for me to learn. I think the Ansel Adams thing I heard early on was way back was Yeah, yeah. Super, super, super long time ago. He said he said basically, being a good photographer is just knowing where to stand. And I think that’s part of it. And I think it’s it’s also like limitations limitations are really good limiting yourself minimalism. Why can’t zoom lenses sort of the same? Same, just getting, I like, the more like, the more limits like the more makes you just to pay attention and see what’s happening. You know, being being able to notice opportunities. I think that’s that’s really what that is. I think you shared a

Dan Moyer
quote that makes me really happy. Does anybody know who James knocked away as police? One of you guys tell me? Yeah, okay. Colin, no. war photographer,

Joe Dantone
highly. Bang, bang, bang, bang club

Dan Moyer
had an incredible there’s a documentary about him called James Stockdale, a war photographer. It’s one of the most intense photography documentaries ever, like, as far as I know, he was like one of the first people to put like a little micro cam, over top of his like, settings and trigger finger. And he was photographing like Kosovo and Bosnian like, the Hutu army and like Afghanistan, and I think there was another, it was on a bunch of different places, but he’s like a war photographer. And guys, photographs are absolutely insane. And in that documentary, while I was watching it in school, when I was like, learning about what kind of photographer I wanted to be, I didn’t know I was gonna be a wedding photographer. But he says, for me, a strength of photography is its ability is its ability to evoke a sense of humanity. If war is an attempt to negate humanity, then photography can be perceived as the opposite of war, and then a power of the powerful anecdote to it. Interesting. It’s like it’s not he’s like, if I can just bring these pictures to people. That’s not like, an image of something happening 1000 miles away that it cuts through somebody’s like, maybe this can be a part to ending war. It’s like this. Yeah. Anyway,

Joe Dantone
that’s a good point. Yep. I did watch that. And there’s actually there’s a couple of them. There was a series that was put out on Amazon. I was it was six different more photographers, and they all knew each other, but it was all their own documentaries on each one of those people. And I was phenomenal. But I also like Bang Bang Club, which was based off of Oh, my God. Go watch Bang Bang club. It is insane. That a Worf star for documentary. Yeah. And it’s like real deal. It’s phenomenal. Go look it up. Do

Dan Moyer
you see the documentary speaking against bottoms? Well, have you seen the Ansel Adams documentary? No, I didn’t. There’s no one like the PBS really good one. I own both of them. I gotta check it out. Alright, finish the list. Colin. Ross, you got on there.

Colin Coleman
I said. Okay. One of the thing was to get a cohort as early as possible and like get like, oh, you can chat with and fight with and

Dan Moyer
be angry yet. But this sounds like a great spot to wrap up. Dad photographers Night Out volume.

Joe Dantone
So your quote?

Dan Moyer
No, I said Mike already who’s got a photography quote? Or who knows the Robert Capa quote? It works really well. Nobody knows any of your stuff. Not everybody. Everybody knows the Robert Kabak. literally

Unknown Speaker
nobody does.

Joe Dantone
Well, you know three guys that don’t

Dan Moyer
backing on Collins about Ansel Adams where photography is about where to stand. Robert Capa possibly the most famous photography quote that there is? Oh, I just thought of a secondary one that I could pull up really quick then. Dan, say it. Alright. Robert Campbell quote is, if you’re not if your pictures aren’t good enough, you’re not close enough.

Matt Gruber
And you’ve said that one I never heard that one. He said it before in the chat. Yeah.

Dan Moyer
I gotta pull up this other quote by Weegee that is like the Even photography quote that like changed my perspective on like most recently about wanting to like be more close with my couples and like, know that like I was in the right

Joe Dantone
and Weegee is the one that photographs murder scenes.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, way back in the day he would like so this dude. Here’s a 1930 street photographer and he knew like his area like the back of his head he’s like I knew every cop every bum every beggar every street lamp every sign and his whole thing was like he wanted to beat the police to wherever these murders were, or wherever like the crime was or whatever. And he’s like I you know, I knew every part of everything I knew exactly how to get there. So that way I could get there and get the real life pictures but he said when you find yourself beginning to feel bond between yourself and the people you photograph when you laugh and cry with their laughter and tears, you will know you’re on the right track by

Joe Dantone
like, okay, that happened like every wedding with me. Everyone say

Colin Coleman
it one more time. I want to I want to I want to hear it again.

Dan Moyer
When you find yourself beginning to feel a bond between yourself and the people you photograph. When you laugh and cry with their laughter and tears you will know you’re on the right track. Our boys, thank you so much for being on hearing for the committee committee. And the colleagues and your thoughts. I appreciate you all. Let’s go do a round robin. Really quick tell my listeners where they can find out more about you and follow you Colin go first.

Colin Coleman
You can find me on Instagram at honey photography. And I will not give my last name

Matt Gruber
but it’s a good mood honey photography.com.

Dan Moyer
Absolutely. Joe, go for it.

Joe Dantone
My name is Joe. Dan tone. lovin legacy studios on Instagram. And Dan tone creative. Perfect.

Matt Gruber
That’s about it. Anything else you want to plug show?

Joe Dantone
Yeah, okay are fine. I don’t a pressure washing company to get pressure pros. Clean up your houses. And your surfaces undersurfaces God Matthew,

Matt Gruber
Mack ruber photo on Instagram. There you go.

Dan Moyer
And my little more enthusiastic. Matt Gruber photo.com

Matt Gruber
So we’re that’s it? That is correct.

Dan Moyer
And as always, I’m your host Dan Moyer, the focus photographers podcast where photography gathers, gather, we’d all gathered our voice. Thank you toodles.