How can you run a thriving business and still enjoy family and personal time? Today’s episode is the first in a series on parenting while running your photography business. My guest is Miles Witt Boyer, who is diving into his own entrepreneurial experience including setting boundaries with clients and taking accountability for his calendar.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES
Catch up with Miles (4:04)
Intentionality in your business (7:48)
Creating incremental solutions (11:46)
Setting healthy boundaries (23:42)
From workaholic to craving out the time (35:27)
Taking accountability for your calendar (42:03)
Identify your habits and hangups (48:31)
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
CONNECT WITH MILES
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERCOACHING.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @DANIELMOYERCOACHING
Transcript:
Dan Moyer
Hey photographer friends welcome to the focus photographers podcast. I’m your host Dan Moyer and I am so thankful that you are tuning in today and spending some of your valuable time with me. This is the first episode on parenting and running your photography business. Over the past few years in conversations and Facebook groups and all across social media, I see photographer parents trying to find this balance between running their photography, business and enjoying time with their families guilt free. This series aims to explore how some photography business owners manage those responsibilities. There’s so much to discuss outside the scope of this series, and likely your own personal situation, your family dynamics, the age of your kids and your schedule and all that stuff, impact what you can do. And when, when my twins were born in 2019, we very quickly went from a family of three to a family of five and it was an interesting shift. There was quite a while until I realized I couldn’t work the same way now as when I didn’t have kids. Everything had to shift and it started with me my priorities had to shift my goals had to shift. But once I made those shifts, everything including the meaning I felt to the connection with my wife to the joy I felt in my business to the connection I had with my kids. It all followed suit. So if you’re a photographer who wants to grow your business and have a thriving business that you feel proud of while having more family time and spending more personal time filling your own cup, go to Daniel Moyer coaching.com/coaching to set up a time to connect and see if we are a good fit for coaching. Okay, on to today’s episode, my guest today is a second timer on the podcast. He is one of the very early episodes. He was episode 10 and his first episode was about taking clients on a journey that is more than just taking pictures. He’s a Fuji X photographer and a holdfast. Gear ambassador. What’s really fascinating about miles is despite having such a busy schedule and having a team to work with, whenever you’re with him, you have his full attention he is truly a joy to talk with. In today’s episode we talked about how he manages a busy schedule with his family and photography sessions and being a coach for a soccer team and setting boundaries with his clients and actually setting meaningful boundaries with his clients. It is a thoughtful and impactful episode that I am so thankful I have the pleasure to share with you. So here it is enjoy my conversation with Myles with Boyer.
Dan Moyer
So, man, dude, you’re back, like three years later, and you’re back. You’re never
Miles Witt Boyer
left dude. I’ve just been sitting here watching you cheering from the background. I just live in that room that you don’t like to open the one that’s filled with camera bags.
Dan Moyer
That’s a closet right off to my right.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yep, yep, I just sit there and watch you and like, man, he’s really crushing this episode.
Dan Moyer
You are the biggest freaking cheerleader. And I really appreciate that.
Miles Witt Boyer
You’re, you’re doing you’re doing big things. Like I had a friend of mine. We were talking about my podcast the other day but I had a friend of mine talk to me and we were talking about my you know, I call my engagement how to you know, it’s are the numbers high enough. And I want to encourage you with this basically said this friend of mine said, if you were to sit in a room once a week, with that many people that would just sit and listen to your opinions. You would be terrified. You’d be over the moon but you’d be terrified right? Yeah, yeah. And so do I that’s I can’t help hype you up because I’m like, Man, I don’t know how many people listen to this. I do so and I’m somebody but like even 15 people listen to this you’re adding so much value to those 15 people’s lives the like listeners double down on this one this is a good still
Dan Moyer
going to still go on. I mean, it’s been your your first episode was about taking clients on a journey that was that’s more than just taking pictures and that came out it was episode 10 came out July 27 2021. So we’re recording this early January 2024. And it’s like three and a half years still going. You have a lot has happened. You actually were on this podcast before you launch the photo co podcast Yeah, yeah. And just like I mean, tell me about that. What’s been going on with you dude, that’s
Miles Witt Boyer
been a whirlwind it’s been a blast. Now we’ve we’ve sat down now with like the biggest names in the industry and and made them cry. We made them cry. Dude, I got Jai long to cry on my website like well yeah, beat beat that No. Tears are not my website. My podcasts cried on my now. He probably cried about my website. I’m just anyway. Man, it’s been it’s been really special. The goal there The purpose was to humanize these these these people, these relationships I’ve built over the last 15 years of doing this job and to expose people like there’s such a weird celebrity culture in photography right now and it’s really toxic. And it’s it’s not only it’s it, there’s a dichotomy because it’s not only breeding its own toxicity by bringing up photographers that are celebrities that aren’t ready for that level of exposure. But it also is isolating the ones that are. So it’s making, you know, brilliant minds feel like they can’t have friends because everybody just fangirls over them.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, it’s like a parasocial relationship. When you’ve got like, all these fans, and you’ve got, you know, you share your whole entire life on your podcast, and people feel like they know you just from your podcast and think they share about you, but they don’t really know you. And that creates a very strange dynamic. It’s
Miles Witt Boyer
so toxic. So anyway, that was the purpose. We were like, let’s just get these people on and let them be humans. And but I have learned more throughout the course last couple years, from asking questions, and and I’ve realized that what’s the saying The youth is wasted on the young or something like that? Yeah. The, the single stupidest thing that young artists do, is spend all of their time producing and no time being curious. And like, Man, if I could go back now and just listen to these conversations as a like, early 20 year old photographer, and learn the lessons, man, the curiosity that I that I that I walk away with now is high, but it’s been into some cool things. I think the best work we’ve ever done, we’re turning out and I’m an old man. And let’s go you are not
Dan Moyer
an old man stuff. Yeah. Old enough. Old enough. So speaking of being an old man, you know, you got a bunch of kiddos. You have two boys?
Miles Witt Boyer
Just two. Yeah. That’s that I know of no, marry. There’s there’s two. There’s just the two they are between if you were to combine all of the personalities of those two children. Yeah, I’ve got a I’ve got at least a base army. And you boys are held? I have an eight year old and a 12 year old.
Dan Moyer
Okay. Yeah, they’re up there. Maybe you oral Damn. Your 12 year old.
Miles Witt Boyer
I got married at 16 holes.
Dan Moyer
And you guys have been met. You and your wife have been married for how long? This
Miles Witt Boyer
is our 15th year. Awesome. Yeah, we’ve got a really fun. We’re taking the boys and the two of us to Italy for a couple of weeks. This summer to celebrate and and just escape. Yeah, spend some some much needed very intentional family time when people think we’re crazy for that I have so many people that are like, Why would you take your kids for your anniversary present? Because I like my kids. I don’t know, I don’t understand people that like, yeah, I don’t want to make memories. Without my children, there will be plenty of time for that, like, all of your kids are up and gone and out. There never leaving, I don’t think my wife will let that happen.
Dan Moyer
This actually brings up this brings up a good point, because you’re saying I’m gonna bring my kids on vacation. I think even even the idea of vacation is for the photographer who’s in the trenches, who’s like in the thick of it trying to make their business happen in their life happen. A lot of times they’re trying to make their business happen at the sacrifice of their family life and their personal life and their personal health and their mental health. So it’s like you’re saying you’re over you’re saying hey, I’m gonna go on vacation? That sounds like a luxury for a lot of people.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah, yeah. And it probably is, I mean, that’s not lost on me. I will say that, that success, success that happens without intentionality behind it isn’t earned. And that’s not the kind of success I ever want. So I and I don’t mean that from just a business perspective. I mean, that like in our, in our marriage and and in my children’s lives and my relationship with my kids, like, I want people to, to be able to talk about the legacy of of integrity and character that we passed on to these kids. Well, that has to be earned, like that time has to be spent wisely. So now what’s the point in running out and trying to, to spend my life documenting other people’s lives at your own at the expense of my own? Then there’s there’s no value? There’s no long term value to that. So
Dan Moyer
yeah, I was always like that, though, as you you talked about intentionality, right, because it’s when you’re in the thick of it, man and like, even 10 years, they’re still fight for it. Yeah, you’re still in the thick of it. Okay. I was about to
Miles Witt Boyer
say, Yeah, very much in the thick of it. No, I mean, yes, my, my wife says and I’ve heard her say this a few times, I was kind of cringe at this is reality, because she’s not complaining when she says this, but I hear it as a complaint. That the first you know, 567 years of our marriage were spent. She was married to me and a laptop in my lap. Because there was just work that had to get done. You know, a lot of people will say, Oh, well, you know, you just got to grind it out. Like you just say you got to put in the hours or put in the reps or insert your tacky cliche here. You do. Yes, you absolutely do. You don’t wake up one morning with a high end like a luxury clientele list banging down your door wanting to pay you 10s of 1000 1000s of dollars, it doesn’t happen. And if it does happen, it won’t last. So yeah, you’ve got to put in the effort. But that being said, I asked for a lot of grace from my family that I was afraid to ask for from my clients for a lot of years. And they gave it to me because they were my family. But what I realized was, my value is actually higher, significantly higher, when I asked my clients, to humanize me and to give me grace, instead of when I asked my family to constantly pay that price. And so, yeah, I changed, I’ve changed the way that I work, I’ve changed the things that I delegate to my team, I’ve changed the the actual verbiage that I use to just explain my work. And to come at it from a level of confidence, but also humility and saying, like, Man, I can’t let my marriage crumble so that I can document yours. Like, that’s not that’s not healthy. And, and I can’t give you advice about how to be like, the most plugged in present bride in these moments, if I’m not taking care of my own bride, right. Like, those things are valuable. So yeah,
Dan Moyer
yeah, I want to go back to something you said sort of in the beginning, which was, you know, you had this like 567 years where your wife’s was saying that, you know, she’s married to a man in her laptop with a lap, a laptop in his lap. But there’s obviously there’s a point now where you’re at, you know, that’s the laptop is not in your lap anymore. And you sort of said, you know, I’m outsourcing, I’m doing some of that kind of stuff. But I’m also using the right words, to put up boundaries for my clients and that kind of stuff. And walk me through more of that, because that feels like, like, really tricky. And I feel like a lot of people are still in that same space of, Well, Mike, you know, if I do anything, if I say no to my clients in any way, then I’m not going to get clients, my revenue is going to dry up, I can’t do anything. And they feel like they just give their whole entire life over these people and forget to, you know, fill their own tank, forget to you can’t pour from an empty cup. Right? So it’s like, how do you find that balance?
Miles Witt Boyer
I mean, I want to say that, that listening to a lot of the especially the, like photo educators that will tell you, like, you know, raise your prices right now. And, you know, like, double down on your worth, and all of that stuff. Like you have to believe in yourself, all of that stuff is great in theory. I think almost all of photo education these days is great. In theory, what I think most photo educators forget is that they put a lot of practice into developing theory that no longer applies to them. And, and that is, that is a direct knock like shots fired on the biggest the biggest educators in in, in this space, because they are now making money. They are they they’re compensating for the loss in work by teaching other people to make bad bad habits a part of their life. Right. And that’s that, like I said, that’s that like, grind mentality. The Wake up and grind. And it’s like, man, if you got into this industry, so that you could get rich, you’re an idiot. And if you got into this industry, as a especially maybe as a wedding photographer, assuming you’re gonna have to grind out 70 or 80 hour weeks, like what a waste of a life that could be lived, serving and loving people, you know. So all of that said, I, now that I’ve so boxed in and made myself sound like I have it all pulled together because that is so not the case. This instead of making these big decisions, like today, I charge $3,000. And tomorrow, I charge $23,000. And you can just suck it like instead of those things. It’s an incremental shift that says, hey, maybe on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I I’m not working after six. Hearthstone. Yeah. And, and walking in and looking at my wife and saying, Can we do date nights, just Tuesdays, Thursdays, whatever that is, if the if you need to just sit and stare at Netflix, I at least will be present with you in that moment. And, you know, what does it look like to say to now say like, Hey, I actually could start my day a little earlier. If that wouldn’t be inconvenient, or, you know, I can charge a little bit more. And instead of just pocketing that profit, I could delegate that out to an assistant that could help me with a few things. You know, and and just understanding your business as a series of incremental shifts just like you do your relationships. You know, like, if that’s let’s use what we were talking about running before you started recording. Well, let’s use that as an example. Like, no one decides on a Monday that they’re going to run a marathon on a Thursday like that stuffed doesn’t work. And when you do that you’re just begging for injury. And so it’s the same thing. I think in business, what you end up doing is sort of saying, like incrementally? How can I make shifts that add that make me a little bit more valuable to my clients? And what does that look like. And if I add more value to my clients in theory, now, this is again, in theory, but if I add more value to my clients, I become more valuable, which means I’m worth a little bit more, which means I can then incrementally raise my prices, which means I can then take slightly less work or be more picky about the work that I’m taking, which means instead of just profiting all of that are pocketing all that profit. I can invest the time that I’m saving back into things that that feed me. Yeah, and there you go.
Dan Moyer
Do you know who Alex for Mozi? Is? The name sounds familiar?
Miles Witt Boyer
No, but he’s super cool name. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
you probably have seen him on Instagram. He’s a sort of like, muscley guy with a beard. He’s always got a hat on and like a breathing strip on his nose.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah, is He? Is he the creatine dude? Or he’s the Yes. Yeah, I know who you’re talking about? Yeah, yeah,
Dan Moyer
he’s really interesting guy, I wanted to not like him, I just did a whole episode. A solo episode based on this one quote from a book he wrote called the 100 million dollar offers. And it’s so in line with what you’re saying about, like, a lot of golfers are at point A in their business. And they want to get to point B, which is the six figures, the 10k Club, the whatever it is, but they’re not sufficiently developed in order to get from point A to point B and, and they just make a huge radical shift. And all sudden, they get nervous because nobody’s booking and, and all that kind of stuff, they have not figured out the market, and they haven’t got the confidence, they haven’t figured out the words when things come up in there. And they’re anxious and, and somebody has an objection like how to respond to that objection in a confident way. But in this book, $100 million offers, he has this quote that I feel like really sums up what you were just saying, where he says, I’d rather do more for every customer and have cash flow coming in, than optimize my business, but have zero cash flow coming in, and zero idea about what I need to adjust to serve my clients better. He’s like, when I, when talking to business owners about their model, I tell them to create cash flow by over delivering like crazy at first, then use the cash flow to fix your operations and make your business more efficient. And I feel like you know, as to what you were just saying, like, don’t like don’t squeeze the hose over here, because you want to have like some big thing, start, start adding things that allow you to start playing at that higher level, while still feeding your your business and while still, you know, bringing income in and then as you get further along, then you can start raising your prices or start doing less of the things you don’t want or start adding that that associate or outsourcing or whatever it is. Is that what you’re talking about?
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah. 100% I think I think it’s that that kind of gets into that idea of like getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Yes. Okay. It’s okay to say, I don’t have the solutions for all these problems. But to know that, like, if you can alleviate problems, you can become, again, more valuable to the market. If you can, if you can solve problems for people solve problems for your clients, you become more valuable, that that looks like a million different things. You know, it looks like one thing for the photographers that I’ve mentor it looks like another thing for the the staff that relies on me, it looks like another thing for my family. You know, but like, I can say at this point, you know, six 600 Weddings deep in 42 states and like 14 countries, I know more about weddings and the wedding planners know I can solve problems. I can teach my brides things about shapewear that their best girlfriends could not tell them but we’ve we’ve invested the time into understanding and understanding where where and how to create solutions and all of that is incremental and and what it has done then on the back end like I said is it brings I feel like success brings character forward in people and and so what has done for us is it has created lots of of massive blessings for my family. We live in a we live in a beautiful home exactly where we want to live, we drive the cars we want to drive we do all of that things. That stuff shirt, the college funds are growing shirt, blah, blah, blah. But in reality, what it actually does is I’ve been able to pivot away from having to, like I said, that grind mentality is something I hate but the hustle mentality I’m here for Yeah, the one that says like, you know, what, if it’s between me and that other photographer, I’m not going to trash them. I’m not going to bash him. I’m not going to but I’m going to win it. I’m going to outwork them, I’m going to win it, you know, like we’re we’re going to be the best solution for a client that wants us there is no route in which a client that wants us doesn’t get us. And so because of that, it’s like, you know that at some point you have to you have to put in the work and, and you know, I mean that that just shouldn’t be sometimes it is but that shouldn’t be at the door. measurement of your family. But, man, I’ve got a million stories for times that I have. I’ve had to learn that lesson a million down. Like, I missed my I’ve spoken about this on podcast before, but I missed my oldest son’s birthday two years ago for a wedding. And I literally had the audacity, which is this is this is so absurd. Yeah, I missed his tenure. Exactly. Disgusting. Even to say it out loud makes me sad. But I had the audacity to ask a nine year old child, if he would be okay, if I wasn’t there for his birthday. As long as we threw a big, awesome birthday party, and I’d be there and he could, you know, invite whoever you wanted. I literally, I literally attempted to negotiate value for a milestone for my child, in order for him to sign off on the fact that I really had a client I wanted to serve. Now you know what, it was a great wedding, it was a client that has brought me a lot of business. From a business perspective, it was the right choice. And this sweet little nine year old boy looked at me and said, That’s just fine. And nobody was hurt, and everything was okay. And life moved on. Except on his 10th birthday, I had to call and sing him happy birthday, the morning his birthday. And I’ll never miss another one. It doesn’t matter what the what the cost is for that. Now, I also hear myself and saying that and saying a lot of people are not where I’m at, from a from a stance of privilege, frankly, to say like they they have to make those choices. But I’m just I’m asking the listeners to say make those choices with intentionality. If you have to make them don’t make them from like, a stance that I made, which was a level of insecurity. If I don’t take this wedding, someone else will. I should be perfectly happy, saying you know, this is not the right, the right fit for me and rolling on. And and knowing that like, you know, often we find ourselves in situations that we’re not quite ready for. This was one as opposed to like, my first $10,000 wedding, which I was not ready for. But I sold in and we doubled down with my team. And I was like y’all please make me look like I know what I’m doing. And they did. And we we all pulled it off. And it was fantastic. And we earned it. But this was a situation it was like, I sold myself into a situation for for selfish reasons. And all I got back out of it was a big old paycheck that I ended up putting most of it into the kid’s birthday party to overcompensate for being a crap dad anyway. So yeah, it sounds
Dan Moyer
like you’ve learned a lesson and like boundaries, right? Like, there’s some things that you can’t get back, you have to say no to certain things. And you sort of alluding to this earlier, so I want to sort of go back to it, where you’re saying, you know, hey, maybe it’s just on Tuesdays and Thursday nights. Um, I’m getting out of work early, and my wife and I are gonna have a date night, right? Like that was that was a huge thing for me early on, because I remember, in those like, early years, year 234, my schedules totally filled up. And all of a sudden, I have a cancellation for an engagement. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, Rachel, we should have my wife we should have a date night right? Let’s let’s have a date night. And I realized that was so backwards that like I’m looking to fit in date nights versus let me schedule family time and my wife time first. So I’m just really interested in these sort of boundaries because I follow on on your social media and all that stuff. And yes, you post lovely pictures from your couples and stuff. But you also post you know, a video of or a story of like your wife hustling on the peloton, trainer or you’re in the backyard kicking the soccer ball with your boys or it’s like you’re getting in those late night miles. And it’s like, literally, late night miles. Hey, sorry.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yes, she is. Wait, sorry. Hey, hold on my Oh, so
Dan Moyer
what? So like, what are the boundaries? Like? What are the actual things when you’re making that shift from I need to not be the husband and the dad with a laptop in my lap to I need to own my calendar and, and put this time back into my family?
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah, what a cool question. I think that the the clearest answer is, is to assume that I have those things marked off in my calendar. Early on, as, as any photographers sort of making that pivot that adjustment. That’s the only way you can do this, right is like if you have a standing appointment. So for instance, I sit in as a strategist and interim CFO as it were for a large venture capital firm, once a week, and I just sit in and this is a brand new thing, but I sit in to just create ideas. My job is just the I’m the ideas guy. I took that on to stretch myself because I’ve been doing my job for so long. I wanted to see how other people do their jobs and get some data back and then help them maybe maximize that but really I do it for myself. That is is on Wednesdays I have a have a standing appointment in my calendar, right like I have to be at this office at this time. Now, if I were to do that job, which I won’t, but if I were to do that job for the next 10 years, I wouldn’t need to have it in my calendar anymore. Like, I would just know, tomorrow’s Wednesday, and this is what I do. And then I can start to backfill other things in my calendar. But I have got a lunch with this client, and I’ve got a call with that client. And you know, I’ve got a dentist’s appointment, or whatever it is. So the answer to your question is, for a long time, I had to be fairly intentional about things like, Man, I’m going to hold Sundays for family time. And, you know, I’m going to try as hard as I can, for Saturday mornings to be, you know, I don’t start weddings, if I’m in town, I don’t start weddings until this time, so that I can try and make the morning soccer games or whatever. And I had to do that for a long, long time. But what ended up happening over time was me realizing that my priorities had shifted. And now I just inherently know that there are times throughout the week, just like, when I’m tired, I go to sleep. And when I’m hungry, I grab something to eat. There are times throughout the week that are dedicated to my family. And those times are inappropriate times. And I think that’s, that’s the kicker, but those are times are inappropriate times for me to step away and do work stuff. Right? And so our lives now look very different in the sense that like, yeah, I am, I’m the head coach for one kid’s soccer team for a pretty well known club. And then I’m the number one cheerleader for the other kids soccer team. And I don’t make it to all the games. In fact, the reality is, as the head coach, I don’t make it to a lot of the games, I’m there for training. But those boys four days a week have, we’ve got to be on the pitch after school, we get you know, they get home, they’ve got a little bit of time to chill and relax. But by 530, we’re on we’re on the pitch, which means that when my phone is ringing and ringing and texting, because my clients have gotten off work, I’m unavailable.
Dan Moyer
But you have to, you have to sit with that though, right? Like, like you how many people can’t handle and I’m one of them where like, if I know that like a client’s waiting on some for me, or like, I have an email my inbox, it sort of eats at you. Right? Like, I mean, and um, that’s something I’m actively working on. Not like just checking my email randomly and not checking my text messages. It but it’s like, it was that easy for you to just say, Nope, this is my time. I don’t even need to look at my phone. I don’t need to tell my clients back. No,
Miles Witt Boyer
definitely not. But But I had a meeting this morning with a good friend of mine who’s a videographer who asked me to help him walk through some of some of these things. There’s actually a sales training that we’re we’re getting to him to be more successful in his sales process. But the beginning of successful sales starts long before the inquiry long before the inquiry. Actually your your most important sales tactic for let’s let’s use wedding photo as a, as an example, your most successful tactic as a wedding photographer, happens probably three, four or five years before your clients even get engaged, they may not even know each other. Because you’re building your building brand integrity, that then gets passed along to them. And so my easy answer there as as I meet with these couples, or commercial clients are the exact same way. But as I meet with these couples, it’s not like I have business hours conversation. It’s a you know, I have priorities conversation, and you are one of them. But you’re not the only one. And, and then you capital Y as in like you being all of my clients are not my only priority. You’re just a priority. And so there is a time in which I will get right back to you. Now if if something occurs to you at 11 o’clock at night you wondering whether or not I like lavender or periwinkle bridesmaids dresses more and 11 o’clock is the time in which you want to text that you can feel free to send that over, my phone will be on silent. And I will get back to you if at all possible. First thing tomorrow morning. If I don’t get back to you tomorrow morning, I remember I said the most valuable thing that we can do is to humanize ourselves. So if I don’t get back to you first thing tomorrow morning. It’s not because I hate you or I hate lavender and Periwinkle. And it’s also not because I’m crappy at my job. It’s because I’m a human and I’m making breakfast for my kids and I’m trying to get through, get a run in and I’m backlogged on editing and all of that stuff. And so you know what the most valuable thing that you could do would be to send me another text that’s just a nudge. Hey, quick question. Does that does that you know, yeah, is there another color that you like better? And, and when you do that, it’s so intentionally when you build relationships with people so intentionally, that not only gives grace but asks for grace in return. You’re you’re in a situation where when they email you and you literally forget to get back to them. It’s okay. And you know what, when it’s not okay, this is a true story. Let’s get you want to get deep. I have a I’m usually remarkably be remarkably tactful with the way that I meet and handle sales and all of that stuff. Yep, I had a sales meeting yesterday was a snow day at home yesterday school kids were out of school. I had a sales meeting yesterday at four o’clock yesterday afternoon that I thought was today, I just lost the day, to be honest with you. And I got a, a, an email that I missed, because I was literally playing Legos with my kids and, and then an Instagram message that was a little bit more annoyed. Like we’ve been sitting here for 15 minutes. And that’s when I saw it. And so I got right back to him. And it’s 15 minutes later, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry, I can jump in right now. I feel horrible. Not the way I like to do business, or we can reschedule for tomorrow. And they replied back, not with not as much grace. It was 15 minutes. Now, I would be happy to give my clients a 15 minute window of grace. Just like Dan, you gave me I was running late from a meeting when we started, you gave me a 15 minute window. But they weren’t in a situation to give that to me. And here’s the beautiful thing, it was the fastest way to qualify that it wasn’t a good lead. And so me asking for grace and asking to be human is one of the fastest ways that I’m able to work with people and say like, Hey, I know I’m gonna give you guys this. And so I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’m sorry. And I explained the whole thing, full honesty, playing Legos with my kids. It’s a snow day, I just got totally mixed up. I can be on in two minutes if you guys are still available, and the response was not as kind. And so my response back was, it doesn’t seem like I’m a great fit for you guys. Here’s the name of a few other photographers that I recommend and good luck. Yep. And, and I’m sure that they were probably like blindsided, like, wait a second, this guy isn’t kind of grovel. Happy? Absolutely not. We all have work to do. And you guys just you just painstakingly exposed to me that I don’t want to work with you anyway. So yeah,
Dan Moyer
that’s that’s a problem, not a you problem at that point. Because like, when somebody else has parents, or has kids, like, like, if you email me and you’re like, hey, I need 10 minutes like, yeah, literally because I was hustling around right up to the moment where I signed on to this to get you know, my wife is still on in the corporate world. She’s on training for like this for hours on camera. So she gets off a certain time. I’m doing dad mo take the kids upstairs for naps and lunches and all that stuff. It’s like right up to that minute. Like I’m, I’m working on trying to get thing, you know, trying to get the kids down for naps. And if something goes wrong, or somebody doesn’t like the socks they’re wearing, or whatever, all sudden, I need 10 more minutes and happens all the time. But maybe if you don’t have kids, you don’t get that as much or you don’t understand or it could be a million things. But this idea of humanizing yourself and your clients. And just just like just this give and take is such a refreshing approach to boundaries, where people are just like, because usually it’s I stopped here. That’s it. Don’t text me don’t do anything. Right. At least that’s what I seem to see more versus like, you know, kindness, right? Like, yeah, just lead with kindness.
Miles Witt Boyer
I don’t think I don’t think most people even mean that in a gruff way. I think they just see that. They see that when you log into google and you look at see what time does your favorite coffee shop open, it opens at seven. And if you get there at six and you want coffee, there’s nobody there. And like, they’re like, Well, I’m running a business. So why shouldn’t I have that same luxury? Well, because regardless of the your view of the baristas role at that coffee shop, that coffee shop is providing a product you’re you’re rolling in to pick up a product that you as a photographer is providing a directly is providing a service and your service is human to human it is it is p2p No matter your whether you do in person sales, or you do what however you view your business. If it’s not service oriented, you’re you’re flawed from the from the jump as a photographer. And I don’t know how many times I’ve said this in in platforms and speeches and whatever, but you know, 95% of the people at an event will never see my photography, but they will all see the photographer, the person that holds the camera, the the the energy that I bring the poise, that I bring the professionalism like how articulate I am, how kind I can be with working with other vendors. All of those things are what established my value. And then the quality of my photos just reaffirm that value. And, and so, man, we just we have to we have to realize that we’re working with humans and we are humans. And again, there are so many corporate jobs out there right now that would love to hire you and so if this is just too much for you, then then Bay All. But if it excites you to work with real people then understand that like, it’s a two way street. And you’re going to end up having to give them the same grace when they show up 15 minutes late for their engagement, shoot, and they’re flustered and they’re tired. And, you know, he worked a half day, and they kind of got into a little bit of argument on the way over, you don’t get to act as though it’s inconvenient for you. Right? You know. So you just have to give
Dan Moyer
people grace. Yeah, I really want to keep going back to this like this like moment where you have this shift where you’re, I can just picture like, you’re at dinner table, whatever, you know, young kids, and your wife says this thing about the laptop in your lap. And I’m just, I’m just wondering what the, I don’t feel like we often come to those realizations on our own, there’s like usually some sort of like crystallizing moment where you’re like, oh, I need to change some things really a lot. And for me, that was the, you know, when I didn’t have any free time for engagement sessions and all that stuff, or for my wife, I just had everything was blocked up. And it still was like two or three years before I figured out that I needed to own my calendar and start putting family time and you know, time for my wife on there versus just blocking everything out that I didn’t have to schedule that engagement session this week, it could actually wait until next week or the week after. So I’m just wondering what that transition looked like for you, for you from this work, you know, person who’s working all the time needed to get their work done. You’re carrying a laptop with you, too. Okay, I’m carving out my time for my family. And, and I’m saying no, and I’m putting up boundaries and all that.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah, I don’t know if I would say so much that there was like a light switch moment. There probably was that I missed that that would be par for the course. Because I’m still a man. I would say that I think I mean, having kids was the catalyst to this decision. There’s there’s not a question there. It’s like you hold your baby, and you realize that there is there is a legacy being made, whether it’s good or bad. And I’m passing at any given moment, I’m passing a lot of unsaid information to my children. I think often we like, we forget that we think that, you know, our kids are learning the things that we teach them. But that’s not that’s not true. They’re they’re learning. They’re learning how we speak to our spouses, they’re learning how we close doors. You know, they know everything about us, and, and when and how to interact with us. And, and our, maybe our goal, I would, I would argue as dads is to create a really safe space where kids can fail, but they don’t want to. And and so I think what I started to realize, over the period of of time as a young dad is one what true exhaustion feels like. Not not what like this, like dumb young entrepreneurs perspective of exhaustion. Oh, I’m so tired, though. You have no idea what true what true honest exhaustion feels like. But then to being so exhausted for so long that you realize that months and or years have gone by, since you have done anything that that you are truly proud of, outside of maybe like an award at work or you know, whatever. And so it was it was this series of, of realizations that kind of led me to saying like, How can I streamline things? Where can I recapture time? For myself, I’m really, I’m a big believer, and I tell my kids this a lot. I’m kind of an investment minded person. And so I talk to my kids a lot about like, even my eight year old knows this sentence, it will always be easier to make $10,000 than it will be to save $10,000 So I’m not a big like, you know, but drop your pennies in your piggy bank. I’m a big like, hey, walk out there and ask, can you shovel their sidewalk? Because even if you shovel their sidewalk, and they only paid you $5 That’s 500 Stinking pennies in your piggy bank? Where are you going to find those? You know, and so I’m just a big believer in taking that into into my kids as well and saying, like, I’m going to pay into my children’s lives and not ask them to like, you know, let me save moments, but I’m going to I’m going to create time. And as I did that, I realized in my business that there was a number of inefficiencies. There was a number of things that I was wasting time and you know, I’m gonna the first one, obviously, is people like just Doom scrolling on Instagram, you probably just saved yourself 30 minutes, you know, way that probably. But yeah, probably but but even things then like, you know, how much time are you spending just like staring at your inbox? You know, waiting for a response? How much time? Are you wasting? insecurely editing your photos? I do. It’s why I always tell other photographers that will post on Instagram, do we like this better in color or black and white. And my response often is, I don’t like that you wasted the time to ask.
Dan Moyer
Just do it move on.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah, grow some and keep going or deliver them in both it took good, you already exported them in both. So like you clearly have already done so just give it in both and shut up. Like, this is such a time suck for you that that time could be used so well and other things and then finding ways to make the time that you recapture truly healthy, which is like you and I were talking about running, right I mean, I I never ran more than I had never run more than three consecutive miles. Unless it was as a punishment as a as a soccer player. Until 2020 2020 is my first 5k are really and yeah, and the pandemic hit, and man, I decided I was going to run away from my problems. And, and you know, the gyms were closed, My trainer was closed. And I was like, here we go. And but what I realized is running is a not only is it a pretty expensive hobby, it is a massively time consuming hobby. Very, you cannot be a good runner with 20 minutes. And so that time had to come from somewhere. And, you know, now, like I said, part of humanizing my clients is asking for some grace, but it’s not a good business decision for me to be like, well, you know, I don’t work after five o’clock, or before eight o’clock, or between the hours of 12 and three, because that’s when I’m running. Like that’s how businesses die. So, so just finding ways to recapture time and invest that time back into myself. When I have it and back into my family. You know where I can?
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I hear all that. And I love the way that you’re putting it. And I still I feel like there’s this thing that some people are gonna be like, yeah, I get that. But then once the time comes that I have blocked out, you know, I’ve got this time blocked out for myself to go mountain biking today. But I have that editing queue sitting over there of like, for for weddings that I have to get out. It’s like, what do I do? Because and this is like, this happens all the times. When I’m talking with photographers and coaching clients. It’s like, alright, you really have to own your own your calendar, right? I’m telling somebody this and like I do I have this thing off and they’re like, Okay, let’s look back at like, when you took the time off? Oh, I was supposed to do this thing here. Actually, I work that day. Oh, supposed to actually have this state blocked out Oh, actually didn’t do that. And you don’t stick with it. Because you’re overwhelmed. You want to get ahead, you want to knock things out? How do you keep that contract with yourself to say, I have this time blocked out with my family. I have this time blocked out for me at this time blocked out to meditate, whatever it is. That stuff sometimes feels like a luxury when you’ve got a whole bunch of clients tearing you down and you’ve got editing to do and all that kind of stuff.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah. What I mean, yeah, let’s get right to the point. Because that’s your you’re spot on. I mean, for instance, the the videographer that I’m out with this morning, right that we’re talking about his sales process. You know, I’m I just finished my first wedding of the year, last Saturday, edited the first 115 images. 36 hours later, they’re already done. The images will be cold by the end of this afternoon Done Editing by the end of the week. We’ll hold on to him for a few more weeks after that, because Because luxury isn’t quick. Anyway, so that’s a whole other thing. But I was asking him I’m like, Man, how you doing? He goes man, I am eight weddings behind and editing. Damn. And I’m like, buddy, it is January 23 How the heck are you eight weddings behind? He’s like I’m just you know, hit the holidays and you don’t try to keep up with everything. And my wife was traveling for three weeks in December. So I was you know, I was dad of two kids and try to I’m like no, no, I’m not saying I’m not. I’m not not extending grace to you. But I am saying you drove 35 minutes to have coffee with me today. So that we could have a two hour long sales meeting and probably just like you know, shoot the crap and hang out and chat for a little while. Yep, there is there’s a shift happening in your priority list right now where you’re now avoiding your tasks and you’re creating new tasks I want to close my sales is better if you had a client’s waiting for that you want to close your sales better make all eight of those polls happy right now. Heck yeah, yeah, number one now like there’s not a there’s not like a well when do I provide them with my pricing like that? What you have eight people literally waiting for the work. So again, I think my point would be having enough. Enough accountability, whether that’s with yourself, which is really difficult, but a great, great discipline to have, or with someone in your life, a spouse, a friend, a partner, a, whatever, maybe just another, somebody in your industry, but having enough accountability to where when you make commitments for things like giving yourself time to go for a run, or being at your kids soccer game, and you fail on those commitments, once or twice, you have somebody that can extend the grace and say, like, Hey, do better next time. But when you fail on those commitments eight times in a row, you have somebody that looks at you that says, You You’re tripping yourself, and you’re out here, frustrated and flustered with the world, you know, why do I only have 1500 Instagram followers, and blah, blah, blah, it’s like, because your your entire world is spent looking at the wrong metrics, like the analytics of your life suck. So but finding somebody I mean, I know for you, like you’ve mentioned before, that’s, that is Rachel. Right? Yep. You have somebody that will look at you that’s willing to say like, Hey, I realize that you have a successful business and that you love what you do. However, we have two children that 2333 J Yeah, three children that can’t feed themselves, at least not long term. You know? Yeah. And, and I have, and I have work to do, and I’m in a similar situation. But a lot of people do not have that. And so it’s having, it’s having the courage to say like, I’m going to put away the distractions put away like, that’s why I’m such a big proponent of people that will say, like, oh, I use, I use my iPad for taking notes and whatever. I’m like, No, you don’t use your iPad for scrolling on Instagram. Right now. No, I use my phone for scrolling on Instagram. You also use your phone for squatting? No, no. Well, I use my computer for also scrolling on Instagram, you, you know what you don’t use for scrolling on Instagram, a pen and paper. So if you’re the type of human that is like, just so struggling with trying to figure out how to succeed, and how to get crap done, and how to prioritize your family, unplug and turn off everything and grab a pen and paper and just start writing down the things that you’re struggling with, and the things that you’re battling and the things that you’re avoiding. And then instead of spending days and weeks organizing those things, just start checking off the crap that is that is weighing you down. And before long, you’re left with things that will bring you joy.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I feel like in there’s also this conversation about when you do the thing for yourself, when you go for the run, right, we were talking about again, we’re talking about running, and our running goals and things we want to do for this year for us that like last night, I also went for a run like put the kids down. I was like, my wife came downstairs I already had like my high vis vest on I had my headlamp on I was like ready to go like where are you going? I was like, go for a run, right? Like I record this podcast that No, you need to record some on video, like I’m going for a run. And I just put like a few night miles in and my mind was churning on what I wanted to say on the podcast when it came back. I feel like it went so much better. The podcast recorded last night the solo one went so much better because I I like got some of that nervous energy out and I put in some I put some fuel in the tank for me. And I feel like there’s this conversation in there about when you when you do things for yourself, when you do things for your family, you’re able to show up better and be more productive because you know, you’ve already taken you know, you’ve already put your mask on first you I mean the whole airlines have put your own mask on whenever you see somebody else. I feel like that’s got to be part of it. And that’s got to be part of why we were talking about our running goals and why we’re talking about you know, having time for you’re working with your kids on the pitch and while we’re talking about you know, all that kind of stuff that’s part of it for you it’s got to be right Oh,
Miles Witt Boyer
it is 100% We’re doing this thing in at our church right now. We’re we’re talking through that they’re spending several weeks here at the beginning of the year talking through like habits and hang ups and it’s through the it’s through the lens of it’s being taught by another group at the at the church that that deals with people that have struggled with addictions and stuff like that right and so they’re talking through things that are like, you know, often people who battle drug addiction, right? They have this bad habit and then they have a hang up and if you can, if you can identify those things and and relieve the pressure on those things, or at least take the power away from those things. Then often you’re left with sort of a void of like, well what can I replace it with? Anyway, that goes deep in a hurry but but I will say I will say this for most people that I know. Myself included at plenty of times in my life. I have tried to rip Place insecurity with something that either like numbs it. And I’m not talking like, Guys, we’re not talking fentanyl. I’m talking like Netflix. Yeah, I’m talking podcasts. I’m talking like, you know, how many friends I have that are like, Oh, I just I have to have two glasses of wine at night to help me rest. Right? Right. It’s it’s little things that are like, largely harmless. It’s not these things that destroying your body or your mind or your like, whatever. But, but these things that you’re that you’re leaning on so heavily to, to give yourself the space to unwind that, that you don’t realize maybe that there’s like, super healthy alternatives to those things that are 10x. in their, in their results. Yep. And, and they may be something as simple genuinely something as simple as walking in with a like cup of tea, and looking at your wife and being like, Hey, you’re gorgeous. And just get back to work. And like, who, like, Wait a second? I’m sorry. Was that like, was that a an endorphin rush? Was that yes, like, yes. But you’re right, you’ve got to give yourself space to make like tiny micro adjustments in your behavior. And again, like in your running, like, it’s easy to talk to runners, because a lot of times we talk and these things that these these miles that a lot of people that are not runners look at it, and they’re like, holy crap. But I will tell you, this is a true story. I’ve got a really sweet friend of mine, I shot her wedding, let’s see would have been eight years ago now. And I got to know her and her husband very well. I mean, like, the kindest people, and then their, their sweet little daughter, and, and he’s been deployed several times. I’m not going to go into names here. But during his last deployment, he decided that he no longer wanted to be married. There wasn’t a that I know of, I don’t know much more than that. But I don’t I don’t think there was an outside relationship or anything. It was just a decision. He said, This is you know, I want to commit my life, essentially, to service and stay here for a while longer, et cetera, et cetera. Well, it sent her understandably down a little bit of a tailspin. And I noticed the other day on Strava that she had logged for the very first time first I saw her that she logged into Strava. But she had logged her first mile. Hmm. And me being cautious and also very, very aware that is probably not a great thing for her friend, but also like, you know, wedding photographer, too likely, it’d be totally inappropriate, right for me to be texting and be like, oh, yeah, I’m so proud of you. I hope you’re doing well. Like, now. Now that’s not she needs other people in her life to lean in on Not, not me, but Right. But I was so happy to see that she had even if just once she had found the this the strength and guts to like, get out there and do something that I just know made her feel good. Yeah, and, and man, especially for all your listeners that are sort of struggling through like how to build their business, how to grow how to, like I didn’t, I didn’t chime into this one. So I could find out how to like self help book, I want to make my first six figures, right i I’ll speak to you guys directly and say this, your your first six figures, as a photographer, your first six figures is literally just a choice. It’s just a choice, you just have to make the choice, I’m going to make six figures and they will come and they’re going to come a whole lot faster than you think they’re going to come. Your second six figures is a sacrifice. And in order to get there, you’re going to have to give something up big time. And your third six figures is an investment. And in order to invest in something, you have to understand the value of it. So I would ask any photographer that’s struggling to try and figure out where they want to be in that scale. You either need to be hustling for your first or pushing for your third. But as long as you’re finding yourself in that middle, and you’re unaware of what sacrifice looks like, you’re just going to be bleeding yourself dry.
Speaker 1
Pig feels Damn, man.
Miles Witt Boyer
There we go. You got nothing done. I just shut up Dan. That’s it. I’m back in the closet hanging out here with the camera bags.
Dan Moyer
Dude, that might be like the the like little cherry on top. I mean, we’ve been going for almost an hour. And if we’re not careful, we could easily go for another hour. It
Miles Witt Boyer
took me an hour to say anything worth hearing.
Dan Moyer
Now there’s a lot of nuggets in there. There’s gonna be a lot of good Things to chop up for Instagram. Man, that that first 100k is easy is like just me. No, I didn’t say it’s easy. You’re right, you’re right. It’s making the decision. It’ll come up quickly. It’s making the choice. It’s making a decision. The second one is a sacrifice. The third is an investment.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something that we’ve, we’ve, we’ve taught that concept for a while in photo, but it’s something I have. I’ve seen in my own life. I’ve seen it quite, quite regularly in my life. And I’ve seen other photographers, as well, you know, they’ll come to me and say, like, wow, you know, I just want to make six figures. Someone can do it. Stop talking about it and go do it. Like, that’s a lot of money. And like, yeah, that is it’s a crap ton of money. Yes, it is an absolutely a crap ton of money. But, but your road from zero to two $100,000 is very much like the couch to 5k program. Yeah, it is like you just have to get up off your butt and start running. And you’re gonna get there pretty quick. You’d be surprised. Yeah. But, but that next $100,000? I’m not talking the next 10 I’m talking to double that money. Yep. It’s going to require you to give something up. Yeah. And maybe that’s sleep, maybe that’s a relationship. Maybe that’s a bad habit. Maybe maybe what you give up is actually like, super healthy for you. But you will sacrifice something to get there. And then there is nobody that clears three and four and five and six and a million without understanding that they are investing in themselves in order to pull that off. Their their value is, is a dividend of, of the time spent. So hell yeah.
Dan Moyer
All right. We’ve been at it for an hour. final parting thought I’m putting the real pressure on now. Final part. Okay.
Miles Witt Boyer
Can I come back again? Yes, sir. Yes, maybe
Dan Moyer
in another 27 months? Let’s do it. Let’s
Miles Witt Boyer
go. No pressure. Just be here in the closet, if you don’t mind.
Dan Moyer
The miles in a closet. Like, there you go.
Miles Witt Boyer
The final final thought about this, let me let me go as far as to say what I probably should have said right off the bat, which is I am a a super flawed dad. I’m learning this on a daily daily basis. I have a short temper with my big one because he reminds me so much of me. And, and he brings out every insecurity in me that there is I have a much longer temper with my little one because he reminds me just of my wife and how tender and sweet he is until he’s not and then he’s like, a little demon. And, and I’m learning I’m learning but. But what I’m finding out is that here I am late in my 30s walking into walking into I guess what is called middle age, and realizing that nobody needs me to have it all figured out in order for me to have valuable or have value. So I’m just gonna keep plugging away and showing up on podcasts and making friends and realizing that like relationships are more important than, than everything else.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I had a really great guest on in my mental health series. His name’s a Metalla oggi body and he is literally doctor, psychiatrist, board certified the whole bit. And one of the we were Instagram messaging the other day. And he said this thing. It’s like, he’s like, we were never finished. We’re always works in progress. And it’s just, yeah, like, we’re just, we’re all just gotta keep at it and keep showing up and keep doing the thing. I feel like that’s what I’m hearing from you, too. I’m a flawed dad. So right there with you, brother. Okay,
Miles Witt Boyer
I can’t help but notice that you didn’t ask me to be a part of the Mental Health podcast series. Oh, man. Now it should have I wouldn’t have qualified you in mind for dads. There you go. All right, hashtag DadBod let’s go
Dan Moyer
DadBod All right. Where can people follow you and learn more about you and photo and all that stuff?
Miles Witt Boyer
Oh, yeah, that’s gracious. Thanks for asking that. It is at miles wood Boyer to tease and wit on on every all the platforms except for Tik Tok because it’s stupid. And and that’s how I really feel and the photographic collective podcast. That’s a lot to remember. So just find me on Instagram and DM me and I’ll send you links. So, but my right hand do Jared and I do all that stuff together. And, man, that’s a that’s a cool place to show up and serve as well. So thank you.
Dan Moyer
Heck, yeah, man. Appreciate you. Thanks for your thoughts, wisdom, all that good stuff.
Miles Witt Boyer
Yes. All right. We’ll talk soon.
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