How can you balance running multiple businesses while having guilt-free time with family? Today’s episode is the second in a series on parenting while running your photography business. My guests Michael and Melissa McManus share their experience with running six businesses while prioritizing time with their twin girls.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES
Getting started as parent entrepreneurs (4:13)
From making ends meet to six businesses (8:14)
Finding the balance between hustle and rest (14:24)
Handling communication with your clients (19:28)
How your business changes as your kids get older (24:48)
Balancing life and business (28:33)
Aligning your priorities with entrepreneurship and parenting (34:47)
Filling your cup in order to find success (50:40)
Advice for the new parent (56:18)
Choosing your financial priorities (1:01:49)
Parting thoughts with Michael & Melissa (1:08:59)
CONNECT WITH MICHAEL & MELISSA
Instagram: The.Real.M2Photo
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Instagram: Melissa_Be_Zen
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: https://danielmoyercoaching.com/
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Dan Moyer
Hey photography friends, welcome to the focus photographers podcast. I’m your host Dean Moyer, and thank you so much for tuning in today. This is the second episode in a series on where parenting meets your photography business. Over the past year, in conversations in Facebook groups and all across social media, I see parent ographers, trying to find the balance between running and growing their photography business and enjoying guilt free time with their families. This series aims to explore how some photography business owners manage those responsibilities. There is a lot to discuss outside the scope of this series, and likely your own personal situation, your family dynamics, and all that stuff. And your schedule will impact what you can do. And when, when my twins were born in 2019, we went quickly from a family of three to a family of five, and I was struggling to keep up. It was quite a while before I realized I couldn’t work the same way I did without kids now that I have kids, and my priorities had to shift my goal shifted big time. And everything from the meaning I felt to the connection with my wife to the joy in my business followed after I made these big changes. If you’re a photographer and want to grow your business without sacrificing your family time, your relationships, your mental health, your physical health, go to Daniel Moyer coaching.com/coaching to set up a time to connect and see if we’re a good fit. Okay, let’s get to the show. My guests today are a wife and husband team of wedding photographers and they are actually serial entrepreneurs really, they were surprised 16 years ago with twin girls at a time they didn’t really have jobs. And they were just doing anything they could to get by Fast forward now 16 ish years later, and they run six different businesses across photo booths, wedding photography, videography, and even corporate and commercial video. They are two people who I love being around. And I’m so thankful that they actually agreed to be on this podcast. And this conversation, we talked about what their journey was like from not much and having to brand new babies, to running multiple businesses while never sacrificing time with their daughters. And I follow them on social media, we’re friends we see the children’s same groups, and the way that they run their lives and structure the time but with their business and their families is just inspiring too. And I think there’s gonna be a lot that you take away from this episode. So please welcome my friends Michael and Melissa McManus.
Dan Moyer
So, Melissa and Mike McManus, I am really thrilled that you’re here. And fun fact, I don’t know if you remember this. And I don’t know that we talked about this when we were at the speakeasy get together. I never released the episode that you and I did way back when, because I was still getting my podcast footing. And I didn’t know what I was doing. But you were like, I think maybe one or two like first or second people I ever recorded anything with. So I’m really happy that I have you both on the show to talk about things like parenting and running businesses and all that stuff. So welcome. So you guys have like a million different businesses and things going on. And you have kids and you’re welcoming two more kids in your house in a couple of weeks. How are you doing?
Melissa McManus
I mean, mostly good. Yeah. Also, there’s like little moments of like
Michael McManus
I think I think because we’re going to be hosting exchange students for about a month that just adds a lot of new challenges. So preparing. Yes. Very exciting. Super excited. Yeah.
Melissa McManus
And Michael wanted seven kids. When we first met, he told me he wanted seven kids. Wow. What’s changed after we had the first two? twos? Great. Yeah. But now it’s like, Okay, we’re gonna be a family of six for how it feels. Yeah, gotcha.
Dan Moyer
So let’s go back to like, when you like, let’s take it way, way back. Before several businesses when you you guys have twins, right? Who are twin girls? 16 years
Melissa McManus
old, right. 16 years? Almost. 17?
Dan Moyer
Almost 17. Okay, so let’s go way back to when, like, right when they were born, what was happening in your lives then? And, and like, just play that story out a little bit?
Michael McManus
Okay, awesome. Yeah, so we weren’t doing photography. We were doing whatever we could to support ourselves. So there was a lot of chaos. I think our girls were maybe a month or two old when I had a falling out with a business partner, let’s say and put us in really dire straits. So it pushed us into just scrounging to figure out how to put food on the table. So wasn’t until maybe our kids were almost a year old that we fell into an opportunity to photograph for wedding together for the first time, and then fell in love with that. And then not long after decided, like, let’s just do that. And then the the catalyst for us to go full time was I think I had been fired from my fourth job within a year.
Melissa McManus
He likes to tell the boss how you could like improve.
Michael McManus
Employee because yeah, anyway. Yeah, so we didn’t have a lot of weddings on the books, but we were like, Alright, whatever, let’s just do this. And then we just went and didn’t know what we didn’t know. And just, you know, with enough tenacity, and perseverance, you know, after 510 years, we started to figure it out. And
Melissa McManus
then honesty to like, when we first started shooting, we were honest with the people that you know, inquired to us about photographing their weddings. Granted, we weren’t charging much, but no, we would be like, here are the eight photos we have in our portfolio. But we promised to give you everything we trust you.
Michael McManus
Although I think if they realized that we literally had one camera and one lens that we owned, and then we borrowed a rebel kit from
Dan Moyer
Canon digital rebel. Yeah. Oh, good.
Michael McManus
Like, that’s how we started, you know, we never Yeah, and even to this day, it kind of changed or informed how we shoot. So we don’t have a full suite of lenses each together. But we share a full set. So it is really nice, because it forces us to, to shoot and think differently, and share lenses and be a little more intentional versus like, oh, I have each of us have five lenses at every football line. Yeah, maintain that approach.
Melissa McManus
Awesome. My shoulders like that. I feel that. What do you do? And Melissa? That’s the only
Dan Moyer
reason why I went mirrorless is like, I just want to have light cameras, light everything. So when you saw when you had were your twin surprise, or do you know where they’re twins in your family anywhere? Or how did that come about?
Melissa McManus
So I actually had 18 sets of fraternal twins on my maternal side. Okay, so we do like somewhat, I mean, I actually no one told me that when I did, or before we got pregnant, that many twins, right in our family. So I had no idea. But my mom was like, I knew someone was gonna have twins this generation. And so no, it was completely unexpected.
Michael McManus
And, and I was in between the 18 sets on her side and my family’s 18,000 members. I think it was
Dan Moyer
my mother was one of 11. So like, and my mom was one of seven. So like, no, no twins on either side of our family. So it’s very surprising when we had twins, but But yeah, 18 sets of twins. And you guys both have big families. You said,
Melissa McManus
I know. I only have one brother. And he’s one.
Michael McManus
Yeah, there’s 13 kids in my side. Three adopted, it’s a whole thing. And that’s another podcast.
Melissa McManus
Okay, family trauma,
Dan Moyer
trauma. So I want to know, like, Okay, you’re saying in this beginning, you have your twins, and you’re just like doing anything and everything you possibly can to just make ends meet? How do you go from that? In? You know, I’m assuming and that’s like, 2010 2008? Somewhere in that 2008? Okay, how do you go from that from scrounging from making ends meet to now you have five or six different businesses you have, you know, people who work for you, you have? Do you have employees? I think you have an editor that works for you. Right. So how do you? How do you do that while having kids because a lot of a lot of photographers are already just struggling to do one thing, right? They’re starting to just like,
Michael McManus
I think it starts with like, even the approach that we have to parenting, which is being incredibly intentional about everything. And, like, my favorite thing to share about having kids and how it changed me is that it like makes you realize that everything you do is important, like because you have these humans that are growing and watching and you know, everything you do is affecting them. And we all know kids learn by watching not by, you know, telling them what to know and learn and what to do. So, so I think, in some ways, there’s a lot of discipline there. But I think also, if you’re like us zoom out, this isn’t like a three year journey. This is 16 on a 17 year journey. So we never we just never stopped pushing. And then we stayed consistent. So we weren’t like and it’s different now because I feel like there are photographers or certain vendors in our industry that can come in and two, three years, they blow up and it’s amazing what they can do. Like we were old school and we’re like we’re just gonna grind and just like one client at a time. And just like we our ethos was always like just do right by others, and do honest work. And Google come back to us, and even even the years that seamless, impossible, and we’re like, how are you going to do it, it always worked out. So there’s a bit of faith, a lot of
Melissa McManus
stress. But also, I will say that, like, there were times where, you know, we were burning the midnight oil, because we had to, but I also feel like, you eventually reach a point where you’re, if you’re not taking time for yourself, and to fill your cup and to rest, most importantly, rest, like your body is going to eventually tell you, it’s going to break down and it’s going to, you know, cause illness. It’s now I went through a probably like a four year period of my life. I’m probably 3035 33 I don’t know. So we’re on our mid 30s. I had extreme anxiety, and it was almost like debilitating. And that’s when I knew like, okay, like, I’m putting out way more than I’m receiving or giving myself to, like, rest and recover and like, just fill my own cup. So then, even though we have so many businesses, we kind of did like, step back and be like, Okay, well, we need to hire help. This is what we can let go of, I think a lot of us struggle with because we’re artists letting go of control. Yeah. So you know, that’s a big step. That’s a big hurdle that a lot of artists find themselves in where it’s like, that’s, that’s the bridge right there where they can, you know, cross and have a little bit more. Yeah.
Michael McManus
And there’s a sacrifice, there’s a sacrifice of control. And you know, that, like having an editor even know, they’re still touching happening. Melissa can’t really let go. Like, I used to edit all of our weddings back in the day, but I was so particular about it, it will take me forever. And yes, training me. And then we got to a point and I’m like, we just can’t, like I can’t do this because I have no space for anything else. So letting go of that. And just realizing that, you know, maybe the image is going to be at 90% out of 100 for me, but the client doesn’t know. And the average person? Yeah. So if we’re showing work that is that 90% And people are coming to us, or 90%. Yeah, our, I mean, for me, sometimes it’s like 6070. Like, the crazy thing for me too, is like letting go completely, which frees me up time to be able to endeavor into starting a photobooth business, starting Sagra films, and doing all that. And I don’t even look at my images anymore. So like I just enjoy photographing, and being with people and that experience, and then I don’t see anything until it’s on Instagram. And then somebody’s like, I like your photo. And then in my head, I’m like, I would have crafted a little bit differently. But I like oh, it doesn’t matter, you know. So I think that that really helped us be able to create space and time for us to continue to explore other avenues. And knowledge,
Melissa McManus
just like our support system, like we have, I have an incredible we have incredible parents that help out during this whole journey. And I mean, they have been wonderful. So So and I know that not everyone has that. But we all have support systems that we don’t typically lean on, for whatever reason for shame, or just like not wanting to be a burden. But like, that’s why we’re here. That’s why we’re all humans to like, help each other and like to support each other. So yeah, but it’s just supporting or leaning on our support system has been really helpful. And then also,
Michael McManus
studies show that it’s actually really beneficial for grandchildren and grandparents to have real relationships and quality time together. So there was also that part of us being like, we don’t have to have shame and asking for support because this is actually good for everyone involved. You know, and our daughters adore their grandparents and it goes both ways. And it’s a beautiful thing to see even at like 16 them like getting texts and comments on things or whatever and just like they just love that connection with them. Yeah, I
Dan Moyer
want to go back to something that you both said you said like sort of things that are sticking with me and one was Michael you said like you know there was just like this grind at a certain point and just like I heard this in there, I don’t know it wasn’t your words, but I just hear this point of like, like at some point some people like this is too much for me I’m gonna give up. I think there’s a point at which you you’re saying like this is like you recognize like, this is where people give up this is the hard part. I just have to keep going a little bit I just have to keep like refining or, or like you said letting go of like this part of it that I need to do something different find it different way. And then there was this other part that you said Melissa of like, yes, do all that stuff and, and if all that stuff you’re doing is causing you to not be able to rest or be sick or like, like the I never get sick. The times I do get sick is when I’ve been up late, too many days in a row, like if I go to bed at like midnight, or one like which I rarely do I go to bed at like nine o’clock now. It’s a hashtag young kids. But like, I hear that, like, I think but I think the difficult part is finding the balance of those things and saying, No, like I have, I have six weddings I need to edit, but I really just have to go to bed. I think that’s hard to just be like, I have to go to bed or I have to rest or let me go for a walk in the woods that feels like a luxury and a nice to have when people are like, where are my pictures? Right? Well, I
Michael McManus
think also like having your contract that your pictures are expected. This time range giving yourself knowing how long it takes you and your kind of workload, like and being okay with that being okay with going into that last week that it’s supposed to be delivered, you know, and just letting go of it. And for me that the hardest thing for me to adjust to was like setting boundaries in times that I would work and being able to be like, okay, like the kids are home from school. Like, unless there’s a meeting already scheduled at some point in the evening. Like, I don’t do anything, and I’m available for them. And that’s why I won’t look at email on my phone. If a notification comes up. I won’t even look I swiped it. Because if I see it, then I think about it. And then I obsess and then I’m like I need to Office. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we work on our home for the majority of the time. So it’s not hard for me to get sucked into that. But now it’s it’s easier. And I’m like, I don’t care. You can you can wait 12 hours, it’s not a big deal. You know, but but that was a hard switch used to get frustrated with me about it. Because having done like, sales jobs for the most of my life when I had real jobs, it was, you know, like, I just became very sensitive to the experience with clients and as a client. So I’m like timeliness. And responsiveness is like such a thing for me. Maybe a little bit too much. But that kind of created this obsession that I had to kind of, you know, meat off of? Yeah,
Melissa McManus
I think I balanced him pretty well. Because I don’t know, I think I set the expectations too, with our couples that like, Listen, I want to give you the best of me. But sometimes the best of me requires a walk in the middle of editing your wedding. Because I’ve been sitting here for hours, and I’ll go take that walk. And honestly, like I have all the years that we’ve been working. rarely ever do we ever go to the extent like the end of the turnaround time that we mentioned in our contract, hardly ever, but I don’t even know what that is. But we have not I’ve never had a bride or a couple upset with us for doing we what we also need to do for ourselves. Yeah, like, I don’t know, maybe it’s the clientele that we
Michael McManus
partially the clientele but I think also the way that we connect with our potential couples and get to know them and just kind of, we’re pretty open people. And like, there’s no ego, and it’s just like, how can we serve you and enjoy our experience together? I think add that with Melissa being open online with you know, videos of her and hanging.
Dan Moyer
Still Kavik Yeah. I watched it, it was great.
Michael McManus
You know, and then for, like, I don’t post as much in general, but like, the things I do typically share now that our kids are older, we don’t share a lot of them because we it’s their choice, right. So like, so that’s limited a lot because I’m obsessed with our kids. I just always want to be like, these amazing creatures are awesome. Yeah, yeah, that’s like as every parent should but but now like even for me just like sharing art that I’m doing that has completely nothing to do with our wedding work. I think it’s also helpful as far as like, Oh, they’re just like human beings. And they’re just like doing things that fulfill them and make them happy. And I think people resonate with that.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. Do you do hit guys have really great communication with your clients? Because I asked that because it sounds like I’m in the same boat where I’ve never really had any issues with my clients and whatever there was it was just like, it just became like a non issue because I either handle it well or because I have really great communication with my clients. Like there were times when our twins were born or you know when COVID went through our house or you know any number of things a death in the family. It’s like I need this extra week and I’m sorry, I’m behind and I would get I would reach out prior Uh, and let people know, this is what I’m going through, this is what’s happening and all the time every single time, they’d be like, Yeah, you’re fine. Like, don’t worry about it, take care of your family, your family comes first. So I’m assuming you guys have great communication with your clients, that you
Melissa McManus
get all communication really like, you need to have that foundation of communication. And most of them nine out of 10 couples, I’ll throw in that one that might not be understanding about it. But 90% of all couples are like, yeah, we’re human, we got it, like, go take care of yourself.
Michael McManus
Also. Also, what’s been really interesting is texting or email communication is not as effective as a phone call, where you have that human voice. And beware have a fluid conversation, especially as it pertains to parents of couples, you know, to, like, there might be like, something that seems like an issue through email. But after a five minute phone call, of which four and a half was about nothing related. Everything is fine. And you know, like, everyone, people are generally good all around. So it’s really just kind of like, okay, what’s the situation? How can we help you in this situation. And here’s where we’re at with
Dan Moyer
it. I feel like such a fuddy duddy because like, I love the phone. But so many people hate getting on the phone. And I’m like, it’s just so much easier, there’s like, way less time I can just fire this thing off and have a conversation and we’re done with it. I don’t have to worry about because I, I will stew on something. If I get like an email or somebody’s upset or something, I want to take care of it right away. If I have to email them back, it eats at me until I get the email back. So just Yeah, I love having been hopping on a phone call. But it seems like very few people want to do that anymore. Very few photographers want to hop on the phone. Um,
Michael McManus
I don’t want to I want a good phone call is equal to like, 10 emails and a week of communication. So you know, there’s just it’s, you know, it’s quicker. Yeah. That’s it. That’s why like, even like, if I’m on a meeting with a potential client, and especially the parents are on board, or the parents are involved, but not there. I’m always like, you know, if so and so on. Like, if you want to have a follow up call, I’m always available, you know, or anyone you know, involved has any questions like reach out to me, I’m happy to jump on the call. A lot of times people don’t take advantage of it. But they like knowing that we are available. And it’s it. I’m not excited about picking up the phone. But once I’m on I’m fine. And then it’s over with and we all move.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. Sounds good. The phone’s funny, like that’s interesting that you’re like, I don’t like the phone, but you still do it anyway.
Michael McManus
It’s yeah, so reminds me, there was a book I read a bajillion years ago by Brian Tracy, I forget what the book was called. But he was like a, you know, self help guru, Whatever, dude, more business focused. But he has this like saying, eat the frog, which is about Yes, like, doing the thing you don’t want to do first and get it over with. Like, that’s how I like to always start anything. You know, if like, my work days, specifically, like, I’m just going to sit down and do the thing that at least want to do, because then the rest of it becomes that much easier. So it’s the same ideas. Like, I don’t want to do this. So let’s get it done. I’m still learning. Yeah, our kids aren’t. Like you and our girls. They’re like, they can wait till like last night. Our daughter Ava had a photography, project two, which was relatively complex, I think, involves multiple people lighting, like going into, you know, motion, things like that. And I’m like, why are we doing this right now? Like, why couldn’t we do this during the day? And maybe like two weeks ago?
Dan Moyer
But it was first assigned?
Michael McManus
Yeah. But like, no, like, that’s fine. We’ll get it done. I’m like, yes, we’ve because you’re involved. Which, which i i enjoy.
Melissa McManus
I’m sorry. They get that? Yeah.
Michael McManus
Like she was so excited to go into the photography class. But it is not going well. I’ll just say this, because I it’s a great bonding experience for me and her because, like we work together on her projects. And like, for me, it’s just support, maybe throwing out an idea or be like, Oh, well maybe try this setting type of thing. So we’ve done a lot of stuff together. It’s been really wonderful. But like she’s literally creating photographs, and I’m like, that’s something that I would do. So I wouldn’t do as well in the class. As you know where I’m at now. And this is photography in high school.
Dan Moyer
Did it get easier as your girls got older, because like, right now my my twins are home. They’re four years old, and I keep thinking like wow, they’re gonna be gone, the whole week, at the end of this year, they go to kindergarten. And I keep thinking, like, I’m gonna get so much time back that like I, I’m not sure how like what I’m going to do with all that time back. But I’m just like, I’m sort of looking forward to it, but really dreading the fact that they’re going to be now gone all the time. But it’s going to mean that I can be do a lot more work and I can get be more productive during the day. So I’m just curious if that just happened to the two of you as they got older. Yeah.
Melissa McManus
Oh, yeah. And you know what, and you keep getting more and more time, which is like so bittersweet, because, like,
Michael McManus
although it diminished a little bit when they started, they tried sports for a couple of years. Now, we are not a sporty family. We’re more artsy fartsy. But so like that, you know, practices and games like that. We were like at all of us who didn’t really
Michael McManus
like sports? Yeah. And they’re like, We don’t like this really good. We
Dan Moyer
don’t like watching you.
Michael McManus
What’s your dumb? Yeah, so like that, that was challenging. But yeah, in general, like, if they were in school, such as now, like, we use that time to do our work. And when they aren’t, you know, again, we’re, I’m really efficient with the way that I work and the systems I’ve built, and the necessity for me to be involved. So I have a great team. And I leverage that really well. So I don’t require more time than they’re awake, if that makes sense. So unless I’m doing a meeting, like I think two nights a week, I make myself available for evening meetings for couples. But other than that, it’s just, you know,
Melissa McManus
like how you implied me, I
Michael McManus
was waiting for that. So so like we what’s also interesting is, like we stay in our lanes, like she and ISIS office manager are, are heavily specifically focused on m two and the photography side and our social media stuff. Whereas my lane is our film companies, and focusing on that, and then our photobooth companies is run, we have someone who manages both, and does, we might check in once a month. So I don’t really have to be that involved. So we have very specific roles, and it’s separate. So like, I don’t tell her and judge her. And what’s also nice is that our times of work are typically a little bit different. So I’d like to be here alone, and just focus and do my work. And if
Melissa McManus
I’m next to him, I’m like, Hey,
Michael McManus
she’s like chemistry music on. And I’m like, it’s like rave music. I’m like a classic. Yeah, so like, I just want peace and serenity and alone time. So it also helps because I’m, I’m more of an early person anyway. So like, it even makes like I don’t, if she’s out doing whatever, I want to work even harder, because I don’t want to work next to her. In the best of ways. With love like I just because I know you’ll do better without me to distract you. And vice versa,
Melissa McManus
we can distract each other. Yeah.
Dan Moyer
That grateful that you guys shared how you like have your things separated. They each have like, you know, your own sort of tasks and things like that. I want to hear from each of you about sort of the boundaries that you set up. Like Michael, you already sort of mentioned, like, when the girls are home, like I’m with them, I don’t want any time. So I’d love to hear like more about those boundaries. But then also like, you know, especially in the early years, Melissa, it’s like how do you? How do you handle the, you know, new mom responsibilities with also saying like, I also am an entrepreneur, I want to run that business. And like balance those two things, because there’s a lot of pressure, I mean, just only watching from what my wife went through and people touching her when she was like out like people touching her belly and stuff like, Oh, I’d like just the comments you would get and all that kind of stuff. I just think there’s a whole lot more mental load that you also receive from the mom side and running a business. So that’s we hear from you on both of those things about your boundaries and things like that. Yeah,
Melissa McManus
I mean, there’s definitely a lot of expectations plus placed on moms, especially working moms, and a lot of pressure and I just have this mentality of like, Where can I remove the pressure? Because if you let society like places pressures on you, it is so overwhelming. And I’m not saying that I do great at the balance thing all the time. But I can very easily tell at this point. When I feel off balance and that’s like when I feel that that’s when I know like okay, something needs to be address something needs to be realigned. And then I do what what I need to do for myself to realign that, so that I can feel more balanced. And that might be slipping away from, you know, emails and just waiting until tomorrow to answer them, which I know some people that would eat them alive. It doesn’t meet me. Or just, you know, whatever I need to do to balance that, but, you know, yeah, it’s, it’s hard. I also much respect to working moms. So,
Michael McManus
yeah, yeah, I think it’s fair to say that in the first five years, specifically, because our girls were also very young, it was a constant like rebalancing to happen. But that coincided with us starting to kind of work on our personal development, and, and trying to actually focus on growth as a couple as a family and our business simultaneously. So I think individually, too. Yeah. And I think that, that definitely helped us kind of constantly, like refocus. So like, I think of it as, so we used to go to church. And what I loved about it, is it’s almost like a weekly refocus back on to things that will be important to us. Granted, not all the sermons are that good. But But But I, there’s something that I enjoyed about that, that kind of constant coming back to center type of experience. So we just kind of did that through our own, you know, methodologies outside of that experience. And I think that helped us a lot to be able to, to figure it out. And then just over time, it does start to figure out and get its, you know, you know, legs under it, and we had a benefit. And you might be experienced experiencing this now, like, having twins has its challenges, but also has its benefits, like, are our kids, like, there’ll be times when we would want to play with them, and they didn’t want to play with us. We really want to do something that no, we’re good. Like, oh, my
Melissa McManus
God, have you? Yeah, like,
Michael McManus
we got our own thing.
Dan Moyer
We got her own thing. They had,
Michael McManus
they always had a great, like bond and connection and friendship, on top of just being siblings, and I think that helped us in freed up some time. And also, they’re just generally good kids. So it’s not like we’re like, oh, is someone trying to set a fire somewhere? You know, or whatever. So like, they would
Dan Moyer
draw on our walls? Adorable. Literally, that’s what you do. Yeah, I
Michael McManus
draw on my wall. We’re okay with that. But But I think like, in general, back then it was like, one if one of us could sneak down and do some work. If they required our attention. Yeah, we would just stop. Yeah, or, or if the other one was available. Like, you know, like, most of admittedly, like you would always make dinners. And that will be a time for me if I wanted to try to get some work done. Or if I was there to, you know, entertain the girls if they wanted us or needed us. You know, and just, it’s just like, every day was a little bit different. But over time, we started to create these kind of patterns and in our kids, kids are adaptable to and smart. They’re so adaptable. You know, I think we just kind of figured it out. And I wish there was a better cooler way to answer all
Melissa McManus
trial and error. Yeah.
Michael McManus
But I think it’s like the willingness to grow and improve. And then when it came to
Melissa McManus
also know that no matter how much you try, you’re never gonna be perfect. Like, right.
Michael McManus
I mean,
Dan Moyer
I mean, it seems like, it seems like in those early days, like the lack of schedule is the schedule, like, flexibility.
Michael McManus
Right? What and so also, like, the alternative, like being, like having your own business means you’re the boss, which puts on a lot more responsibility, but at the same time, there’s a lot more freedom in that. And I think, for me, the alternative, which is having it not work out and having to get a job was like terrifying. And I’m like, No, that is not happening. Like
Dan Moyer
my wife says to me all the time. She’s like, if you could never work a nine to FiVER, she’s like you would hate it just like keep just keep grinding. Keep going. Yeah.
Michael McManus
And there was years where I was really annoying to my friends and like people I meet and I’m like, Oh, you have a job. Which now I realize it’s like stupid. Not for everyone. Definitely not for everyone. But I think you know, just having that taste of freedom because some people can make it work and have you don’t need that structure from outside yourself to be able to function and
Dan Moyer
what you both have mentioned sort of structure and patterns and things like that. How, how has like, like, it sounded like before you were like, you know, we would just sort of alternate right? If if Melissa’s making dinner I would run down have stairs and get a little bit of work in or whatever it was. So you’re, you know, you’re just finding little pockets of time. What kind of patterns then have developed to now where your girls are older, and you have these responsibilities in your business, but you also really want to spend time with them. So like, how do you organize your time now? And what patterns have you created? Each of you since you both work differently? Like this is what I’m very curious to hear about is like, how do you align your priorities in your businesses with two different working styles and parenting?
Michael McManus
I’ll say that, if they need us ever, even if it’s like today, there was probably about 50 text messages exchanged in our family chat while they’re at school, lunch money, my account, you know, for like, like, I’ll always like, what should I name this art piece, like, we’re all like, you know, we were at the gym at the time, but we’re like chiming in. Like, the thing that will always be true is like, if they need us for something will stop what we’re doing, unless I’m literally in a meeting, and I’m not seeing, you know, if it’s an emergency, we would obviously be able to tell. But I think that’s kind of like the thing that’s most important to us to simplify it as far as like the work side is like, I do everything when they’re gone. And then it because we know how much we can handle and want to handle. And this is a privilege to do this. We’ve structured our businesses, to know what our numbers need to be for us, personally, as far as weddings, we want to document which still allows us plenty of time to have with our kids and for ourselves. So I think there were years where we were shooting between 40 and 50 weddings. And that was obviously a lot harder, a little more stressful. But like now we do 15 which is a completely different world. You know, and, and because we have been able to build a team across multiple companies, it’s like, benefited us greatly, because we’re making more than we ever have. And we’re doing less, which sounds you know, it’s purple engine to say that but that’s it was just intentional growth and kind of making sure that we’re doing it in a way that allows us to still prioritize what’s important, which is our kids mainly, but then also us time, like, together and individually. And we’re literally a house full of introverts. We all like one time we all like to just disappear in which is generally us making art or dancing. Then get lost. And then you know, we resurface and we’re like, oh look when I was drawing? Like what do you think of this? Video? Yeah, so that’s kind of Yeah. And
Melissa McManus
I’ll add to that. I mean, you’re still in the beginning
Dan Moyer
of this journey of this parenthood Jamberry. In the beginning of it still?
Melissa McManus
Yes. Once they start school, it is just like Time flies and you and they say it’s true when they say like, you blink, and you’re just like, oh my gosh, like our girls are in 11th grade. And at some point you hit this. Well, at least for us personally, like we hit this point where we’re like, okay, things need to change, because like, we don’t want to keep saying yes to everything. Because yeah, the money’s great, but then miss out on their whole childhood and like this experience for us to be their parents. Yeah,
Michael McManus
what was your 18 summers with your kids? Hey. Yeah, and knowing that in less than a year and a half our kids are gonna be 18. Yeah. Following adults, and we don’t know what’s going to happen at that point as far as whether or not they’re gonna leave for college or do whatever the heck,
Melissa McManus
or stay with us until they’re like 30. I don’t know.
Michael McManus
Yeah, so yeah, I think just being like, acutely aware of that,
Melissa McManus
and just being mindful of like, so he works mostly in the mornings. I don’t like to work before like, 9:30am like, not my thing. So by the time I’m, like, ready to work, he’s like, almost ready, he’s done so that I do my thing. And then by the time the girls get home, like we’re both pretty much available at that point. And then we always have like this debrief, because they you know, they’re teenagers and a lot happens at school, so they need to come home and they just unload and we just, we just give them that space. Like what happened also
Michael McManus
we’re pretty drama pretty bested. It’s like watching trash reality.
Dan Moyer
What, like
Michael McManus
we know all the character. It’s funny, fascinating. Yeah. And then you just like our kids are, they have such a fun sense of humor too. And we like we’re like, inappropriate within our house together. And it’s like, understood and like, you know, that sort of thing. So it’s just, I mean, I won’t share any of it on here, but it’s just, it’s just such a fun like age because we can also have conversations about pretty much anything. And where for the first 12 years, it was like, everything would go over their head. And now they catch everything. So then like, it’s always like, I’ll just say something. And then like, I look over and we make eye contact, and like we all start laughing. It’s just, it’s really fun. But yeah, we get this awesome. Like, they just want to talk about their day and half of its complaining for sure. You know, and but we enjoy that because it’s quality time. And then it usually also trickles a little bit into dinner time. Yeah.
Melissa McManus
And then they go, because they’re teenagers, they go to their rooms to do their thing. So then it’s like, if I have anything else to finish up on, like emails or whatever, then I have, like, you know, another hour if I need to do it
Michael McManus
later in the evening, and there is also a lot of times where we’ll ask them to do things. And most of the times they say no, guys want to watch a show tonight. Like, like going to the gym, I love going to the gym with them. You know, and whenever they do, and they know ahead of time, then like, I’ll go by myself first, and then I’ll go back again with them. So I could focus on them. But it’s like, I just always, almost every time they have free time, like hey, do you want to go to gym? And they’re like, No, I’m okay. I’m like, maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow, maybe once a week or once every other week, I can catch him in it. And it’s just, almost I just think there’s value in being like, hey, like, do you want to do this together? And obviously, it’s a healthy thing to do that.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. That I see. Like all these parenting advice, accounts on Instagram, right? You know, I’ve read books on parenting and things. And then I look at my kids and like, oh, this parenting advice I’m receiving is for like, when they’re teenagers, like, I still have like seven years for until this is going to happen. And I’m like, damn, like, like, they’re so old. But yet they’re so young yet, right? Like, I can’t believe that they’re four, right? They were born, middle of 2019 pandemic happened. And like we had no help all that stuff. I just like sat in a nursery for like three years because Rachel’s in the corporate world and had no flexibility. It was wild. But like, the one thing that keeps popping up for me that I keep thinking about when they’re as they’re getting older and they’re gonna go to school, is that I will miss them. Like when I’m at weddings on the weekends, right? Because they’re still little and now they’re gone. Like right now like I heard Henry and Regina like they’re up from their naps, like they’re on the other side of that door there, they can come bursting in here at any point, like asking for any number of things. And that will not like they’re in they’re in preschool now like Monday, Wednesday, Friday 9am to 12. And they’re super psyched on it. But like, they’re going to be gone for like the whole week soon. And then I will have a wedding on the weekend. So it’s like, Man, I’m gonna miss them. How much more do I want to be doing this? So you feel me on that? Like, how do you manage
Dan Moyer
balance that? Yeah.
Melissa McManus
10%? And that’s like, yeah, that’s where you have to, like, realign again, like, how much are you willing to? You know, how much you’re willing to work? Or how many weekends are willing to sacrifice? Which
Michael McManus
is, which is a permanent thing to say? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yep. Yeah, it’s, but just soaking up those opportunities while you have them. And it’s different spending time with the kids now is very different when they were like six. And it’s all amazing in its own way. But it’s also all very different. And I think we knew we weren’t gonna have a lot of weekends for a decent amount of their childhood. So we made sure during the week, we spent a lot of time and then we also would always a lot time to travel with them, which I think the travel experiences we have had with them have made a huge impact on us as a family. And then it’s like humans, and I think there’s that’s just something that like, you can’t I mean, we bought it, but you can’t buy that, right? Like you just it’s it was like one of the best investments that we’ve ever made for them to be able to go to a bunch of different cultures and experience different things. And, you know, to do that with us, and to have us all kind of seeing things and experiencing things together for the first time was really pretty magical. And like traveling as adults going someplace is completely different when you add in kids because kids have also such a sense of wonder
Melissa McManus
thing, and it helps you it helps bring out your sense of wonder and playfulness. And then you’re like, oh my gosh, my inner child is healing.
Michael McManus
Yeah, and, you know, obviously we photograph everything. So, so like being able to have that record. And then for a bunch of our trips, most would make books. And then we occasionally go back and like, you know, go through them like What do you remember this whatever. And now we have Google Photos that sends me reminders from the past 16 years of all these things and like so randomly just like text pictures to the family group and be like, oh, like remember this, whatever. And it’s just like being able to connect back to that time is is really special. And you know, it’s harder to travel an hour with them because of their responsibilities at school. And
Melissa McManus
also it’s really hard for them to leave their friends. Yeah. Majors.
Michael McManus
Yeah, thank God. They’re not sports kids.
Dan Moyer
Oh my gosh, sports kids, all three of our kids are in dance. And like, Oh, I love that. Yeah, Henry and Gina and like a like a tap ballet thing. And Alice’s in ballet. And this is only like, like, going on six months. But they like they’re eating it up. We’ll see. I don’t know. I’m curious to see how it goes. But yeah, this. It’s so tricky. This parenting thing, while like, there’s so many fields that I have of like, like, only recently, over the last like two years, I decided, like, I really I love weddings, I love the way that I approach them. I love my clients, I have really amazing clients, but my clients, while my clients are a priority, they’re not the priority. And I find myself saying like, okay, like, what’s gonna make weddings worth it for me? Like, how much do I need to make? How many do I need to make? Because it’s really nice being like, Okay, I have 10 Weddings booked for next year, that’s this amount of money, boom, like, that’s a nice safety net, to be able to have those things, but I just keep coming back to like, what’s, what’s this balance, right, and then it’s gonna change. And a couple years after that, it’s gonna change again, just a moving target.
Michael McManus
I thought, I think a good thing that we’ve always done with our kids that helps throughout every stage is actually getting feedback from them directly. And saying, like, now they kind of like dread when I ask them, because it’s not cool anymore. And they’re, it’s harder for them to be like, vocally vulnerable with me. But it would just at the end of the day, I would just sit with them individually. And I’d say, you know, how am I doing is your father? And you know, how do you know that, like, I love you, and how can I show you love and just get get that feedback, because it doesn’t matter if the intention is there, if they’re not receiving, then, you know, we need to make adjustments. So I think having checked in with them for probably 12 years of their life has been really helpful and us kind of focusing on that. So being with a kid for five hours in a day where you’re distracted, most of the time is way different than 15 minutes of like solid connection, you know. So like, I would rather have that and like an actual moments and you know, when the weather’s nicer just to be able to take a walk with one or both of them around the block, which frees us from distraction. And we can just talk about things that are important to us. It’s like invaluable. I mean, that’s literally a 20 minute thing. And I’d rather have that than again, just like being in the same space and having everyone be distracted. Yeah,
Melissa McManus
I will say that, I think it’s so important for parents to know their children’s love language. And that changes like all of our love languages change as we like, evolve. But when our kids were little, their love languages were physical touch and quality time. And now it’s interesting because like their love language is acts of service and gift giving,
Dan Moyer
giving interesting, like, they just like little mementos
Melissa McManus
of like you think of them. Or like if we ever go on a trip, and we come back and we bring them something, they’re just like, oh, this is awesome. Like, we love just the fact that you thought of us.
Michael McManus
Yeah, and like this morning, so we got a text, the school buses gonna be 10 minutes early. So I’m like, Oh, that’s not good. We don’t want that. I went to them. And I was like, Hey, girls, your boss is gonna be early, come and take you to school, just like a simple little act of service. And they were like, Oh, my God, thank you so much. Like, yeah, yes, please. You know, and it’s like, a lot of parents complain about traveling the kids around, but I’m like, I love it. And like, I love picking them up from Japan club and like to take them to this musical practice.
Melissa McManus
So much happens in the car when they’re teenagers. Like all the conversations are happening in the car, like, yeah, yeah. Because it was just something I didn’t expect. Because you don’t you know, I wish we had more time with them. But like teenagers are doing their thing, and they need that independence. They need that space. Trapped
Michael McManus
with you in the car.
Melissa McManus
So yeah, and then when you get their friends in the car, too. Oh, my gosh, you get a bunch of teenagers. I mean, you’d never know what you’re talking about. It’s fun. It’s fun.
Dan Moyer
There’s a couple this came up a couple of times. And there are certain things that like you guys do that I feel like maybe you you either take for granted, or certain things that everybody does that they take for granted is like a normal thing that they do. Like, do you sit down and watch Netflix all the time as a family or like I’m just wondering, like what these because when you say hey, I’m going to I’m going to take you to school this morning. Is that okay? And they’re like, yes, that’s awesome. Like you’re sacrificing that time somewhere else. So there are these like things that you know you do Do that things that you do. And you don’t do that if you were to maybe think about, like, this is something that like, we have sacrificed or we don’t do so that we we have these other times to connect with our kids or we have more time in the day or whatever it is. Can you think of anything that like, Are these like hidden advantages or sacrifices that you based
Michael McManus
off of things were saying no to or not doing? Yeah, like,
Dan Moyer
you know, I guess this also is an extension of the boundary conversation of like, you know, my wife and I, we have one date night, every other week, we’ll like watch a movie, whatever. But other than that, like, in the evenings, we’re not watching movies with the kids. We’re not like, we’re trying to be outside, we’re, you know, there’s boundaries and things that we say no to a lot of like, we don’t go to bars, like I don’t drink. Like there’s like, there’s just things that we have given up that I think, in some ways have, you know, encouraged my success? Or I’m a natural Empath, right. And I think I tend to get clients who are also like that, and who are very open. And so like, that’s a, maybe that’s like a hidden advantage for me that, like, I’m just in tune with people. So I’m just wondering, like, what, what those are for you, or if you would, if there was any of those things would pop up when I say
Michael McManus
that we don’t have a normal lifestyle, which is the biggest advantage in that we have control of our time, 90% of the time. So I think that’s for me, the thing that allows us to be really flexible.
Dan Moyer
You know, like your chalkboard drawings, right? Like, when you’re when you’re working on that, right? You are not Netflix and you are not scrolling on Instagram, you are not like there are things that you’re actively saying no to or maybe there’s just things that you would naturally don’t do, because you’re working on these other pursuits. Right, Melissa, you have your Zen Den. So you’re when you’re like, overwhelmed, you’re going to that place. I feel like these are like these, like, hidden advantages or like little things that like are like you build into your life to make sure that you’re in a better place. And I think
Michael McManus
it’s just equally prioritizing ourselves and filling our own cups. And for me, making art is the same experiences her dancing, and all the other things that she does. I’m a one trick pony. So I just you know, and I did start painting recently as well. But just kind of being like I think humans are are meant to create, and I think there’s this, it’s just a beautiful experience. So for me, it’s partly personal, meditative. And I like creating things and pushing myself there. But I also see as an example, for the kids where it’s important that I do it, because I don’t because they’re artists themselves. And there’s this always a pressure of like, side hustling, everything that you do. And you know, being an artist and making money aren’t, you know, necessarily the same thing. They don’t need to be stuck together. So I want it to be that example. So they’re seeing that I’m, you know, roughly putting in an hour a day when no one else needs me. Or wants me, you know, so I’m not really sacrificing there. So I know. Yeah, and
Melissa McManus
I don’t feel like I sacrifice much to do the things that I do. Because I don’t we don’t watch much TV. If we do it’s like after the kids go to bed. And if we’re just like, let’s just lounge cuddled together and watch like a show or two, which the latest show that we have been watching is Sheldon which I freaked out. Yeah. Yeah, young Sheldon.
Dan Moyer
We just finished Big Bang Theory. Like, like, two months ago. Yeah.
Melissa McManus
No Nice. Young Sheldon, you
Melissa McManus
got to watch it. But also like, yeah, so I’m, like, very mindful of like, what’s a time suck in my life? Like, do I need it? I don’t scroll much. I don’t go on. It looks like I might go on social media much. But really, I’m just like throwing stuff out there and just engaging with like anyone, like mindfully, but I don’t scroll much. And I don’t like get lost in that rabbit hole, which has been hard to do. But I realized, like how much mentally it it takes for me, like when I do scroll, and I just get in that trap. And that does free up a lot of time. And also like, I’ll go do like in person ecstatic dances for myself. And that’s where like, you know, when we do things for ourselves, we just like rely on each other like, I got the household. You go take care of yourself.
Michael McManus
Yeah. And we create kind of rituals around that. So whenever she goes out, which like I might go out all the time. She’s a big concert. By music, I hate live music. I just Yeah. Anyway, so she’ll go and show like other friends and like whatever. But for me and the kids, it’s like always an opportunity where we have like a really quality dinner in terms of time and conversation they ordered. We ordered Chinese because she’s not a fan of it. And we’re obsessed with that. I need it every day. So It’s like, we just always know, mom’s out,
Dan Moyer
we Chinese
Michael McManus
guy, we’re gonna have a nice, you
Melissa McManus
know, everyone celebrates.
Michael McManus
But it’s just become an automatic ritual we have, which is really nice. But again, like, if I’m out doing something like, you know, I would only do a board meeting on like one of the nonprofit’s that I’m part of or something. So it’s like not huge time commitments or anything but like, if I’m out doing something to go have lunch. Well, I also like if I like hanging out with friends, it’s usually like a breakfast. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
I feel that I want to be feeling. Um, yeah. At night, I’m like
Michael McManus
the senior citizen now. Hang out, how’s breakfast then I still have time to like, do my work, go to the gym before I pick up the kids like, it works perfectly. I guess I’ll fit in everything. And we just have to draw later in the day, if I’m drawing, yeah, I
Dan Moyer
have like a, I have a this men’s kickoff thing. It’s like a eight week challenge. And the kickoff is on this Saturday, it’s at 730 in the Lehigh Valley. So it’s like an hour away. And most like, Oh, you have to wake up soil and like, Great, I’m gonna be like, I’m gonna go do this thing, I’m gonna feel so accomplished. I’ll be home by like, 10, it’s gonna be great. I’m really excited about that. So a lot of the photographers who listen to this podcast, and a lot of the ones that reached out to me, are in the very early stages of like, they’ve been in business for a couple of years. And then now they have a new kid, they’ve got a two year old or something. So if you’re thinking about your past experience, I’d love to hear from each of you. Like what you would say to them, like they, they’re in their business, the new kid comes along, and you don’t realize how much your life is going to change. When that kid comes along. And they’re not sleeping and all that kind of stuff. What would each of you say to them, as they their full time photographer, they want to continue doing that? What would your advice be? If they’re sitting down next to you? And they’re like, I am riding the struggle bus right now?
Melissa McManus
Yeah, I think my advice would be that whatever you’re doing isn’t enough to not put so much pressure on yourself. Try to find pockets of time to give to yourself, whether that’s just a freaking nap, or that she still does. So good. Just there to back it up. And I follow the science, you guys. Also just again, like lean on your support system, if you’ve had that support system, lean on it. And I think like, as human beings, we’d love to support people we do. It feels good to support others. And people want to support you. And we just have a really difficult time accepting
Melissa McManus
or leaving,
Melissa McManus
asking. Yeah, yeah,
Michael McManus
it is. Yeah, it almost feels like Oh, I’m failing. If I asked for help when, like, historically, human beings works in groups, like it wasn’t like, it’s such an individualistic, you know, American society that we have now where you’re, you have extra pressure, it’s like, that’s not how it works. It’s not supposed to work like that. And
Melissa McManus
if you’re struggling to like, reach out, reach out to a friend reach out to someone you trust. Because I do find that like, if you’re, if you’re struggling and you’re holding it in, you’re storing it. So even just talking to a friend being like, I’m really struggling right now. And they can just hold space for you, whatever you need, like just leaning on your support system. And just know that also, this isn’t forever. So if you’re struggling now, just keep doing what you’re doing to like stay, to stay like where you’re at, or just to give to yourself and know that it’ll eventually end. The light will come out again. Yeah, anything that’s
Michael McManus
ever been worth, like worth pursuing for us, as always been hard. But I think also just like knowing it’s going to be difficult, but the payoff is huge. Like that is motivation in and of itself. For me. Our kids have always been the motivation, the endless motivation of like bettering myself, you know, bettering everything that we’re doing and being very specific in how I go about it because they are watching. And then I have a little bit more of a pragmatic answer is like, try to create really good systems and workflows and simplify and streamline Yeah, and if you can outsource a little bit or now that we have like aI editing, helping out a lot, so yeah, calling stuff like that play into that, like, use it because even if you’re giving up a little bit of money for each job, either build that into your costs or or take that cut, because it’ll free up that much stress. So for me this the pain, the pain point was always editing. So as soon as I was able to let go of that everything in my life I’m better. And I haven’t edited wedding in like 12 years. I love that. So it’s and when we started our video company, I never wanted to edit, and I don’t. And I don’t know how, and I don’t know how to do anything. But I found a really talented editor who we work with, and she’s incredible. And I rely on that, and I built it into my costs, you know, so like, I’ve just planned for it, and I’m okay delegating, like, yes, we could be a lot more selfish. You’re gonna have a lot more money,
Melissa McManus
we wouldn’t
Michael McManus
be working anymore. Literally be done. But it’s not that like our, our would be. Yeah, our experience with our kids would not be anything what it is now. So they’re worth more than money. So it doesn’t matter. Yeah. What’s
Dan Moyer
that saying? It’s like the only the only people who are going to remember your kids are the ones who are gonna remember that you stayed late and 20 years or something like that, and 20 years, your kids barely gonna be gone? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, that’s lapse.
Michael McManus
I mean, like, I think back. I mean, my parents divorced when I was eight, we put the fun in dysfunction. So there’s a lot of other things that go with it. But like, you know, like, I just always remember my parents working. You know, like, and we were on our own. Granted, we were part of the generation that lived outside still, we didn’t have cell phones or anything like that. But I it was a very disconnected childhood in a lot of ways. And we’re kind of on our own. Obviously, things are a lot different. We parent, way different than our parents did. And I think for most part, parents are evolving in a good way. So
Dan Moyer
this, this last point that I want to touch on, is something you both just alluded to, and agreed with each other on, it’s like you said, like we could be done working. Right. But like, we wouldn’t have had this great experience with our kids. I feel like there’s this like, like money is great, right? Money solves your money problems, that doesn’t make you happier. And there’s like, that seems like to be what all of the education and stuff is all about in our industry is like, get your six figures, right, like get your six figures, whatever you got to do to get that, then I feel like I keep hearing people who make it there. And they’ve just like, they look around, and they’ve got no friends. They haven’t been to their friends, picnics and birthday parties and family events and forever. But what I heard you say is like, yeah, we’re making good money. But like, we could have made a lot more. But our kids took priority,
Melissa McManus
right? Yeah. Yeah. Like we can’t get the childhood back. Yeah, it’s a very, very small, it’s a blip really is.
Michael McManus
Yeah, it’s, I think, also, there are people who make six figures. I know, someone who makes like, I think four or 500,000 a year, but their take home is like 90. So there’s also, you know, a lot of ways to make a lot of money, but a lot of ways to not keep it. So I think there is you know, you have to like learn and figure out how to be smart with your money, like, money is a pretty touchy subject for people, they just want a lot of it. And that’s as far as it usually goes. But I’m like, I want to use our money in the best way possible. So even though we’re using a lot of it for our lifestyle for our kids, and for going getting a lot of it for that the money that we do have, I want it to work really hard and to make sure that we’re set up in the future. And if it takes me an extra 10 years, because of what we’re you know, not willing to do, then that’s okay. Yeah, like at least we have, that, that assurity that we’re going to be able to retire comfortably. And more importantly, for me, our kids will be taken care of, for the rest of their lives. Yeah, you know, so I think there is a necessity, especially in America, to really pay attention to like, how you’re investing your money and learning about it, which is like not fun. And it’s, I think, pretty complicated. And there’s a lot of noise around it. So it’s very hard, I think for people to to know what, what to trust and yeah, so fake feels.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, that money literacy thing is real tricky. There was I had a very toxic relationship with money that I have documented well on this podcast, which is another topic for another day. But yeah, I just love that that perspective. Like yeah, we could have be like, we can be totally done working. But like, we don’t want to miss our kids childhoods and I just love that because that’s refreshing to hear. Because like, like I could be packed out with 40 weddings, but it’s just at this point. Now like that doesn’t make sense for me. I’d rather do 10 specific weddings along with some of the other endeavors that I have going on, then like, Yeah,
Michael McManus
I think I think also, I like to fast forward, and then look back. And think what I regret, you know, the decisions that I’m making now. I think that’s really helpful. So it’s akin to the like, on your deathbed, you know, will like, there’s like the most common regrets, like, no one ever says, I wish I would have worked harder. Yeah. It’s, it’s really easy to kind of have the right lens unintended. Oh, and just focus on things that are important. You know, like, that’s, it’s, and, and I struggle with that, because I am a I’m a numbers person. I like achieving things. And I like money. So I have to, and like, our society is so toxic in in, like, the comparison element of seeing everyone who’s seemingly always doing better and having more vigor and like, like, one more more. Yeah, like, it’s sometimes I struggle with myself when I’m like, Should we have a bigger house, but then I’m like, we have an extra bedroom. So why? You know what I mean? Like, it’s
Melissa McManus
like, I can use the space that we have. Well, yeah. So it’s,
Michael McManus
it’s like, I have to sometimes talk myself off the ledge of being like, you know, what you should I just need to do things my way. I don’t care what they’re doing. And that’s good for them. And I just know, based on experience, a lot of people who have a lot of things are also a lot of debt. Right? Usually, yeah, it’s, that’s a whole other conversation. Just doesn’t, it’s just not actually fulfilling. Yeah. By just trying to just pay attention to that and focus on things that do matter and saying, a lot of times I’m saying no to like getting a fancy car, because, like, I want to impress someone, like I have this thing where I like being what like, what is it like people? What is like, they don’t expect much of me what is what is the word I’m thinking of? Like, I just I like being under underdog? Yeah, like, I just expected? Yeah, like, I just don’t want people to know that about things that aren’t important. And I just want them to see my press and be like, oh, yeah, he’s, he’s alleged for the environment. He’s a lesbian that loves the environment. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t, I’m okay. People just judge me, basically, you know, understand and just kind of make quick snap judgments without knowing who we are. Because
Dan Moyer
you know, who you are. I think that’s the big part is like, like, my wife, and I just paid off both of our cars. Like, I own my car, she owns her car, now flat out and it’s like, like, it’s, it is the greatest feeling to not have a car payment, and I don’t ever like I love my little Subaru Crosstrek. I do not want another car like. And I it’s interesting that, like, you would not like most of the people, there’s like that there’s this book, The Millionaire Next Door. There’s also another one that’s more recent. And I forget who Chris Hogan wrote one, there’s like an older one. And it was like the most popular car was for millionaires was like a Jeep Grand Cherokee Creek key or something like that. It’s just a regular car. But we look at the person who has the $90,000 Porsche and think, Oh, they’re rich. But what you really know is that they’re either $90,000 in debt, or they now have $90,000 less, right? Like, I don’t know, it’s just funny that like, praising those, those things are so interesting to me when like, the really hard part is saying, No, I’m focused on this goal. That is where I want to get and I need to say no to these other things, including the fancy car, including the status symbol. Oh, my my friend Joy Michelle says is she’s from I think she’s originally from Texas. She said she calls that big hat, no cattle. Big Hat. No cattle. Yeah. Anyway, so one of the reasons why I was really thankful that you guys would come on today is because you’re further ahead than I think a lot of the photographers that I’m talking to and a lot of my audience, you’re in this, like, you’ve got several businesses, you know, you your kids are a little bit older, and you can look back on like, what things worked and what didn’t work. So as we wrap up this episode, any final parting thoughts? There’s the there’s the bomb dropped? Open. I know. I’m rooting for you. Yeah, like that energy?
Michael McManus
Yeah. I think just like relying on our community is is something that people should be okay doing. And I think actually, our local photography community specifically does a really good job through speakeasy and all that in supporting each other and a lot of the stuff that you’re putting out there and ventures that you’re launching are directly geared towards helping our people. But I think that just being open and talking about issues is super important. And yeah, we were lucky to be where we’re at in a lot of ways, but we’re still figuring stuff out all the time. And you know, it’s like, you never arrive. It’s just work. It’s like continual like, just why they call yoga practice. It’s not because like, oh, now I’m a yoga it’s like, no,
Melissa McManus
it’s it’s practice. Yeah, we’re, we’re students of this earth school.
Dan Moyer
Quote is going on Instagram, students of this earth school? Well,
Michael McManus
and like, you’re like, who you are now versus, you know, 2018, for example, for you specifically, you are a very different person. Very, and you and your wife together are different. As a relationship. It’s a it’s an ever evolving thing. And you have to constantly wild ride, like, learn and figure out who you are, and who these other people are that live with you.
Unknown Speaker
Constantly. Like,
Melissa McManus
what I feel like Michael is married to like, how many different versions of me now a lot of women never know,
Dan Moyer
showing up. All right, so as we finish up here working, anybody who’s listening, follow along, or just learn more about you or your businesses and see your chalkboard drawings.
Michael McManus
Well, I think I think what is our end to Instagram? We are the real end to that whole thing. That’s it just a real end to Yeah, I don’t know. Is there a.in? There? Unfortunately,
Melissa McManus
I changed it. So unfortunately,
Michael McManus
we have no single one of those called Instagram account, that
Melissa McManus
dot real dot and the dot real into
Michael McManus
Fargo. That’ll
Dan Moyer
be linked in the show notes too. So it’s okay.
Michael McManus
Yeah, I mean, you don’t need to look at my drawings. I’m not worried about oh,
Melissa McManus
people should follow your answer. I really love them.
Dan Moyer
I love that. I love the progress on them. That’s also your personal Instagram, though. or personal Facebook though, isn’t it? It’s yeah.
Michael McManus
Yeah. It’s more like it’s my, I have a chalkboard, Instagram. And then I share that to my chalkboard,
Dan Moyer
Instagram. I didn’t realize it was its own thing. What’s the chalkboard? Instagram? Yeah. And
Melissa McManus
you should follow it are amazing. I don’t. It’s
Dan Moyer
also just such a great thing to like, watch the progress of something like yeah, it’s slow. It’s so slow.
Michael McManus
It’s been interesting. Yeah. What like seeing my time last since I started them of the process, because it is time consuming. And I did one like live 45 to an hour session where I just recorded just the books. I put put it on YouTube and up. You just see me going.
Dan Moyer
And that was like a bookshelf and then like, Yeah, you like smoke, like shading it? Oh, yeah. It was. Just in the background. It was so soon. Yeah,
Michael McManus
I did put a soundtrack on the underscore chalkboard underscore, artists underscore.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, this is early 2000s. It would be x the chalkboard X underscore X six, nine.
Michael McManus
It used to I change it recently. It used to be a chalkboard portraits. Because all my drawings involved a human element. So the photograph was the final piece because there was interaction, but my kids no longer want to be part of it. So I’ve just started doing drawings just for drawling sake, which is great, because they’re all mine. And a lot of those were collaborations with my kids. But I don’t know I like Instagram because it’s just a great you know, collection where you can see how far I’ve come. My goal is 100 drawings. So
Dan Moyer
how big is that chalkboard by the way? How big is the wall? So
Michael McManus
it’s like eight by 16 feet? Yeah. The drawing I’m doing now is a little bit smaller than that though. But yeah, it’s it’s a decent size but it’s necessary to because it’s really hard to get small detail with chalk. Because these my fingers and erasers so like there’s I don’t have I haven’t been able to find a utensil that allows me to go in and like there’s something about the skin and oils in your fingers. That’s beautiful.
Dan Moyer
I’ll accept it. And that is the perfect way to end this. There’s something about the skin and the oils in your face.
Michael McManus
Hearing you say it back sounds really weird out of contact.
Dan Moyer
I’m gonna just gonna slow that last part down and that’ll be just the beginning of the that’d be the book. That’s gonna be the hook for it.
Michael McManus
No one’s gonna watch this.
Dan Moyer
This is an episode about parenting.
Melissa McManus
I also lessly plug in my my private Instagram, Melissa B’s wait Melissa underscore B underscore set that I’m sure will come up But in my personal account I talk about, like mindful movement and grounding techniques and just all things just all full humaneness, the full human spectrum about
Dan Moyer
it. Yeah, I’m mature believer about that over the last couple of years in like, my identity was wrapped up and we’re hearing we’re starting a whole new podcast this is gonna be the last thing I say my identity was wrapped up in being a photographer and then once a point 20 happened. I was yeah, without these labels, like if I’m not a photographer, like forget that I’m a dad and a husband and like Eminem, like, what am I outside of those things? And I think all the things you’re talking about of forest bathing and nature and meditation and prayer, and all of the above are things that are I’m glad are gaining more traction and becoming into the wider stream because there
Melissa McManus
Yeah, the world needs it.
Dan Moyer
My friends, thanks for being on today and talking with me. Thanks for
Michael McManus
asking us. Yeah, thanks for having us.
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