Want to hear more of my story? In today’s episode, my friend and fellow coach Dave Moss interviews me about my experience of becoming a father and running a photography business. Plus, we discuss how we approach maintaining our physical and mental health, overcoming limiting beliefs, and the more vulnerable parts of my experience in entrepreneurship. 

The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!

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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES

How becoming a parent changes everything (01:26)

Juggling personal goals with husband and father goals (05:13)

Defining yourself within labels and beliefs (9:05)

The benefits from physical activity (24:19)

How an ADHD diagnosis can change a life (27:32)

Our parents’ messaging sticks with us (33:33)

Learning to communicate better (39:01)

Don’t forget to spit out your gum (45:41)

Offering clarity instead of advice (55:13)

You don’t need to aim for six figures (1:03:03)

Reading as a cheat code for life (1:19:17)

One last life lesson from Dan (1:34:56)

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Episode 52: Photographers and Mental Health danielmoyercoaching.com/052-2/

Daniel Moyer Coaching danielmoyercoaching.com/

CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER​

Website: https://danielmoyercoaching.com/

Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO

Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS

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Thank you!

-Dan

Review the Transcript:

Dan: Hey, photographer friends, welcome to the focus photographers podcast. I’m your host Dan Moyer. This is a very special treat of an episode. It’s a special treat because it’s very unique. Uh, earlier this year, I was on a podcast hosted by my friend Dave Moss, but since then he decided to not pursue podcasting any further.

And he sent me the files and said, this is a great episode. This is a great interview. And he said, you should share it on your podcast. Dave is a master at asking questions. He was so masterful at just, um, getting me to sort of open up and be vulnerable and all that stuff. So it was, it was really fun to be on this side of the microphone for once and get to share so much of myself and my story and how my life has changed with having kids and all different kinds of things.

He just started asking questions and was just all over the place in a really thorough and thoughtful way. But we go over all different kinds of things like, How I keep my sanity, limiting beliefs, vulnerability, mental health, how I hustle towards my my business goals, but still prioritize my family and my physical mental health.

It’s just a really good episode. I’m so excited to share with you. It’s a very vulnerable look into my world. So enjoy. And a very special thank you to my friend Dave Moss for sharing this episode with me so I get to share it with you. Here we go.

Dave: As somebody who doesn’t have kids, I’m always fascinated when I, when I talk to people who have children, when I interview people who have children. It completely changes a lot of things, I feel like in obvious ways, and then completely with the ways you didn’t expect at all. How has that journey been for you and how has it affected how you see the world?

How like you said, you know, you’re curious about what you’re capable of, has having kids Changed your view of what you think you’re capable of now? Because you know, my, my sister for example, she said when she had her daughters, she’s like, now I’m living for them. I’m not necessarily living for myself anymore.

The things that I do like when she takes care of her health, she takes care of her health so that she’ll be around for them, like it shifted her motivations. Did that happen to

Dan: you as well? Okay, so like I think on a practical level, my oldest daughter, uh, who’s almost eight, she was born in 2016, and I remember I couldn’t get everything done in the time I needed to when she was in daycare like three days a week, right?

And then so I was like, okay We need to put her in another day. I’m still not getting everything done. And it’s like, oh my gosh I’m still not getting everything done. She needs to go five days a week Then what was interesting is when the pandemic happened, our twins were born in 2019, so we had them for about six months, we’re doing our thing, and then everything shut down, and we pulled all the kids out of daycare.

And so they’re all home, they’re home the whole time. Kids just make you better than you ever thought that you could be, right? Like I’m a thousand times more productive now having three kids, one of them who’s in school, the other two are home almost all the time. And, you know, they, they just started at the beginning or in the fall of last year going to preschool.

So like, that’s the first time they’ve been out of the house for an extended period of time. And that’s only Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I am so much more productive now because you It’s like strips away everything that is not important or taking up your time. Like the amount of times I would go and work from my cafe office for, you know, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna go work from my cafe office for like, I’ll just get like a little coffee or something in the morning.

And then all of a sudden that turns into, Instagramming people and I’m Facebooking people and then I’m there for the afternoon and I haven’t been editing the or calling the pictures because I’m on my laptop. And it’s just like it just strips away all the things that are not actually that important and allows you to really focus on like, okay, let me get this stuff done now while they’re napping or while they’re doing whatever.

So that way when they’re awake, I can Play dad, I can actually be there and physically and mentally be present, which is something I’m still working on But then the other thing that you said which really resonated which was your sister said, you know I work out for them so I can be around I 1000 percent that resonates with me.

It’s like, you know if I want my Children to be around me at my deathbed. That’s not something I can start thinking about in 30 years or 40 years That’s now one thing that’s really stuck with me. It’s like this idea of what’s a great life You And I think, man, I really love like vacations and all that kind of stuff.

But I feel like a great life is like how my wife waits for me after I’ve been at a wedding all day and she greets me when I come home. It’s the silly conversations we have around the dinner table. Time with my friends doing adventures with them. It’s not these like big grand moments So I think that having kids has also refocused me on like what what am I living for?

What did these kids give to me? And what can I really give to them that allows me to download my all my positive stuff onto their pristine little hard drives

Dave: I love that. Do you think it changed? What you’re capable of or what your focus is in the terms of like, so I’m somebody who wants to do everything right.

Like I have a podcast, I have five businesses. I have like all of the, I’m way too ADD in my life and in my brain. And I feel like if I had kids there would be like that, that like stripping away of like, okay, I need to like really, really cause time is finite. And so there’s only so much that you have. So how do you juggle what you Dan want to do versus, Like dad slash husband, Dan wants to do.

Dan: Yeah, that’s a really good one. And that’s something that I don’t know if I have like a very well thought out answer because it’s something that i’m Only over the last like year and a half I’m starting to say like, okay What does do I actually want because in those first couple years between pandemic and just young children and then being home there’s a lot of selflessness that has to happen, right?

Like we have kids, they are twins, they are home, they rely on us for everything. And so there’s a lot of, okay, well, I’m going to give up these like long training runs. I’m going to give up, you know, getting to go out on adventures with my friends. I’m going to give up these things. And now that they’re getting back to this point, we’re at the end of this year, the twins are going to go to kindergarten.

So it’s like, okay, what do I really want? You know, one of the things is I want to have more weekends back. Because when they’re in, you know, kindergarten, they come home, they’ve got like three hours after school before they all go to bed. So I don’t want to be gone on the weekends and only have a couple hours at night.

So that’s one thing that I’ve changed. But I start to ask myself a question of like, have you, do you know what Parkinson’s law is? You ever heard of this? I don’t know. Basically says like work expands to fill the time allotted for its completion. So It’s like if I have eight weeks to complete a wedding, guess how long it takes me, takes me eight weeks.

If I, if all of a sudden like somebody comes in and is like, we have this headshot session that is tomorrow and then we need the pictures back tomorrow afternoon, guess when those pictures get back? Tomorrow afternoon. And I think if, if left to my own devices, is that the word I’m looking for? Yep. I will just work and do the things and, and not really get a lot done.

So now. I’ve tried to be more intentional with, let me plan my entire year and let me plan the things for me. Like one of the things I like, I try to make like one big thing, like what’s the whole year about? Like what’s one thing I can say 2024 is about this. And then also going back and doing like a intentionally planning things for the entire year.

Like maybe an adventure every other month with the kids. And then also let me break down and just do like a. quarter, quarterly habit that I want to add. So it’s like, those are the personal things that I’m adding for me where before, like I couldn’t do any of those things. And now I’m trying to say, okay, if I plan these things in for me, I know that I’m taken care of.

My cup is filled and I can pour that into my business. I can pour that into my kids. And. Just being able to do that in general just being able to have the privilege of saying I’m gonna wake up early and Run because I want to do this marathon at the end of the year or whatever That’s like that’s something that I wasn’t able to do previously and that I’m saying, okay Here’s things I want to do for me that fill me up.

Dave: Do you think Parkinson’s law applies to your family?

Dan: Yeah, I think it applies to everywhere. Like if I don’t schedule those like You If I don’t schedule those little times when it’s family time, when it’s, um, time for me or whatever, I, I just get pulled into the phone or I get pulled into, Oh, let me just come in here and just chip away really quick at this little project.

I have, I have an idea floating around in my head. Let me just write it down inside of Notion. And then before I know it, that’s like turned into a half hour, an hour or whatever that is dedicated to my family.

Dave: Okay. So. I want to circle back to your Instagram response to my question. You were trying to figure out, or you were curious about, like, who you were outside of the labels.

Not being a photographer, a husband, a dad, like, all of this. Has anything popped into your mind around that?

Dan: I just, I cannot come up with, like, an answer that’s like, Yes, this feels like me. Or like, these are things I am, because I don’t, I feel like I can really easily get stuck in a label that I give myself, right?

Um, oh, I’ve always been somebody who was bad with money. I’m bad with money. I’m always somebody who has been an extreme empath. That’s a bad thing. I’m highly emotional. That’s a bad thing. And I’ve tried to adjust those things, but how can I define me without, like, these labels? And there’s just this, I don’t know.

I’ve started to say like, okay, this is sort of where I want to go and maybe like that’s sort of been a way of saying like, okay, well maybe it’s not the labels. Maybe it’s just like the behaviors and this is the trajectory I want to get to. But it’s, it’s so tricky when we just get like pulled into these groups and communities and labels and things, and then we start letting them define us.

I don’t know. That’s just. Tricky, and I’m just, I’m curious about that, .

Dave: Yeah, it is, it is tricky. My wife and I have been talking about this recently because we, we had been photographers since 2009, and then she got sick and we stopped shooting, and this year we figured out what was going on with her and she got healthy again, and she wanted to photograph again.

But one of the things that, that she’s been battling with is she never really felt like. She belonged in the photographer community. She, she, she loves her, her spiritual community. And that’s where she feels like she really belongs when she’s like, you know, with people who do energy work or people who do, you know, all of that sort of stuff that she feels like she really belongs there, but she loves photography, but doesn’t feel like she’s a part of that community because she always felt like people didn’t understand who she was as a whole.

And I’m like, well, what if. you do belong there, but you’ve been limiting yourself because you put that label on yourself. Like when you go to those spaces, you see yourself as a photographer instead of just as Abby and like just really open yourself up because we’ve made some beautiful friendships in in the photography community where she was so fully herself.

Like I think those labels, just like you were saying with the self talk of like, I’m an empath and I’m too emotional, you know, it’s like that negative self talk or those labels are almost self limiting as opposed to like an imposed limitation.

Dan: I don’t know. It just, sometimes it just feels like when you put a label on something, it, yeah, it’s so limiting where, you know, when, when the whole pandemic and all that stuff happened.

I was, I came from a small high school, um, 100 kids in it. I don’t know how big high schools are, but here that’s pretty small, like considering there’s some by us that are like 6, 000 kids in the whole school. You know, come from this small high school and you leave that small high school and everybody knows me as like sort of Dan, funny, tall, goofy looking guy.

And when I started my wedding photography business, so many of my clients were from college, were from high school and so I’m sort of like a quote, big fish in this little pond. And that was, you know, a photograph, 2020 was supposed to be my 10 year anniversary. So I’m thinking like, what’s going to happen?

It’s going to be really big. I want to do like some kind of cool client thing. When everything shut down, it was like, Well, I’m, I’m just this photographer. Everybody knows me as that. That’s my connection to all these people from the past. That’s how I get all this unearned access to people. And it’s like, okay, well now what?

And what’s wild to me is that it’s, you know, four years later, since I really started asking that question and I still don’t have an answer. You would think that I’d be able to come up with something like I’ve done some work on it like I went to you know some workshops and things and I saw that my my empathy and my emotion actually allows me to really see people and like just see them in like a way that I feel like I can really resonate with them and I can step into their shoes and I can understand people really well and you know, that’s I see that as a superpower now, but it’s still that’s like how do you identify with something but have it not be you?

I don’t know.

Dave: Yeah. No. This is, this has been my big question since the start of this year is, is this, this concept of identity versus like job or identity versus label or whatever. And it’s like this, like I am a total of the sum of all my parts. Like I am not a photographer or a coach or a whatever. I am.

Like that’s, that’s how I channel who I am. And like, it changed my relationship with social media when I started doing different reels and things like that of like, I’m just, I’m going to go on there and be myself and channel it through different avenues. Right. So it’s like, I go on my, my coaching Instagram and I just, I’m just going to coach people.

Right. Like, but I’m just going to be myself. And if I, Scare some people away? It wasn’t meant to be. If I attract some people, then that’s what it was meant to be. But like, I used to, like, would literally, like, almost like switch hats of like, okay, this is the personality that I have in this part of my life.

And then this is the personality that I have in this part of my life. And it was so toxic and limiting and like, I didn’t like it. Like, I wore so many masks that I forgot who the person behind the mask was.

Dan: Yeah. And that

Dave: was a lot of the last year of, of the work that I had done on myself. My whole last year was basically like fix my mental health because I had a really, really bad depressive episode this time last year, literally today’s my one year anniversary of my suicide attempt.

And uh, it was just like, I had to unpack all of that because I’ve been carrying it for 30 years and I didn’t know how to get to the other side of that. Yeah. And so I think that like. And we’re just, I’m just riffing here. So yeah, feel free if I get it wrong, but like for, for you, I think like dad and photographer and podcaster and empath and all of these things, they’re just like the lens in which you are able to, you know, show who Dan is underneath because you’re all of these things, right?

These are all. Chapters in the book, but the book is continuously being written, but every chapter before informs the chapter after. Like if you were to do something next, if you were to go start a software company, your time as an empath and as a coach and as a photographer and as a husband and as a dad and as you know, a high school student would all inform how the next thing goes.

And so yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting that like identity piece and how the labels can almost I don’t know. Limit seems like the wrong term, but like, sometimes it can be focus and sometimes it can be limiting.

Dan: Yeah. What you said before about like switching hats and masks and things like that, that is that you hit that on the head.

That is something that I, I remember coming into, like, I was going, went to a friend’s house, like literally crying. This was years ago, like middle of high school or something and coming in there and being like, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m. Sick and tired of always being the happy kid. And like, I saw that as a strength when I was in that young sort of naive time.

It’s like, Oh, I’m, I’m happy. Everybody likes me. Everything’s good, right? Like, you know, I’m on the prom court, but it’s like, after a while that becomes like a shackle that you have to, like, you always have to do that. And you can’t be, even when I’m just being normal, like, I’m just like having a normal day.

People are like, Oh, what’s the matter? Are you okay? Everything good? It’s like, yeah, I’m just normal day. Like I can just be normal. Are you sure everything’s okay? Feels, I don’t know. That feels very strange, but I, I feel like from that, you know, throughout like college and even a little bit after you talk about like switching mass, like I could walk the walk and talk to talk in faith, you know, in my faith circles, I could change to like Dan, the happy hardcore drummer from the band I was in.

Um, and then it was, you know, I would be this different person. no matter where I was at. And, you know, now it’s like this, I think this is where that exploration comes from. It’s like, who, who actually am I? What do I really like? Um, because I tried, I felt like, you know, not that long ago, I tried being myself.

And when I was, it was, Because I’m naturally just like a helper, it would be like, well, Dan, not everything needs to be fixed. Not everything needs to do that. And then it’s like, other times I would just be like, okay, like, what do you need right now? Do you need to vent? Do you need this? And it’s like, God, like, couldn’t just, you have to like, make this thing like a big thing.

Like, I’m just, I don’t know who to be now in this, scenario where I’m just trying to be myself and I, I feel like it’s getting rejected or whatever it is. It’s like, it’s still like trying on different things. Like what feels more like me? Like I had an experience a little while ago where I was in a large group of people and I was sort of like baited into, um, gossiping.

And I, that’s one of, have you ever read the four agreements?

Dave: Yeah.

Dan: By Don Miguel. Yeah. One of them is like, you don’t gossip. And so I, I was really have been trying to make a effort that that’s not energy I want to put out there. And I was like, I was like pulled and baited into gossiping. Now the drive home was like, that’s not something that I want to do ever again.

So I’m trying to just be more aware of like the things that feel like me or like just trying to be self aware enough of being like, okay, this feels right. This feels like me. This doesn’t. And that kind of thing.

Dave: I also, like, I don’t like gossiping, but I feel like it’s so easy to fall into that. So easy.

And I was, like, reading about gossiping, because I’m like, why? Like, why do people do this? And it’s like, turns out, and someone out there can fact check me if I get this wrong, but I remember reading in a book somewhere, that they believe that literally language formed because of gossip, um, because it’s a way of, of bonding and othering, which in like a survival sense can be really, really powerful.

And like now it’s just this sort of like leftover thing that we don’t really need anymore, but it’s almost like innate in our system because we are still you know, monkey pod theory where it’s like you can only care about like 100 to 150 people. Like we’re still inherently, you know, tribal in that way.

And so we are constantly trying to other people and, and, and attract people who help us survive and thrive. And so it’s like, it changed my view of gossip in a way of like, oh, this is just somebody who’s trying to bond. But now I’m being like, how about we, how about we bond in a different way? How about, how about rather than, than othering people that we, we, we do this, you know, other conversation or, or things like that instead.

And much like you, uh, I go out for, you know, coffee with my friends or beer with friends. Especially after being a coach for seven years and someone will like come to me and now I just have to ask the hat. I’m like, do you want help or do you want a friend? Because I need to know because my default is I want to solve this problem for you right now.

You might just need to bitch at me and that’s fine. I’m totally okay with that, but I need to know.

Dan: Yeah. All the time you said, you said about like othering people and I had this really interesting experience this past weekend. Uh, I went to a climbing gym with some friends and they’re friends like from high school.

So my oldest friends. And you cannot be a beginner. Uh, or you can, you cannot like fake being anything other than a beginner in that scenario. Like it doesn’t matter how trimmed you are, how muscular you are. Like once you get on that wall, people are going to know. And so to walk in there, I’m like, okay, it’s cool to be a beginner.

Cause I’m getting anxiety of like, Oh, I just want to like, kind of be cool. I want to look cool. So we go in there and it took me by surprise. So the routes, it’s what we were like bouldering. So you’re not climbing high, you don’t have ropes or anything. It took me by surprise that it did not matter which route you were climbing on, whether it was rated V0, which is like really low beginner, all the way up to V10.

It did not matter which route you were climbing on. Everybody in that gym, or everybody in that space, or everybody near that wall was hyping you up. They were like, you know, they were just, they wanted you to succeed. They wanted you to like get through and get to that plateau. They’re like yelling things out.

Like, you know, there’s a grip to your right, match your feet up, like all these different things. And it was this energy of like, everybody just wants you to succeed. And that was like, As somebody who literally is in there the first time, I went up the wall like, you know, some of these like lower ones twice.

My forearms are still hurting from this. But it’s like, where do we get more of that energy? Where everybody’s just like, this person’s doing something really hard and they can see it and they know that like, You’re going to fall off and you’re going to keep falling off. But like everybody’s just yelling these like little things, think about this, do this, you know, and then you come off and you meet with that people and they’re like, Hey, next time you’re on there, you know, start with your left foot first, or, you know, match your hands here.

And then you can like leap up and do this thing. It’s like, where’s more of that energy. Where’s more of that, like. inclusiveness, whereas more of that like desire to see somebody succeed because it’s good to watch them do something that’s hard because you’ve been there before and it’s just good like when other people are like living their best life or whatever cliche you want to throw out in this moment, but I don’t know.

I love that energy.

Dave: Yeah, I think the climbing community is really, really good at that. I grew up climbing with my sister and I remember not being able to open my car door after some long sessions because you’re just your forearms and your fingers just don’t work anymore. So bad, but it was very much a community and it was very much like the climbing gym is a place you were the concept of third places.

Um, no, so it’s this, it’s this thing that, that it’s basically, it’s not work and it’s not home. It’s a third place where you go to socialize and have community and they’ve been dying in recent years, right? Like for a lot of people it can be church, um, or it’s, you know, it’s like the Elks Club or, you know, whatever, things like that.

But for the most part, third places have been dying. Starbucks actually built their business on being a third place. That’s why people go there to work and they allow that or go there to read. Like they never tried to push people away. They wanted to be that third place. And the climbing gym is a very strong third place where it is immediately a sense of community.

It’s people aren’t there to. be elsewhere. You know, it’s like, they’re, they’re having all these types of problems now at like actual gyms where people are going to actual gyms to like live stream their workouts or like do things like that. And it’s like, they’re not being there to be there. They’re being there for another community for another place.

Whereas I find with climbing gyms, it’s like people are there to be there to be with that community and to connect with that space. And so it is a hyped up place. Like everybody is there for one another because that’s the reason that they’re there. There’s no like. Externality to it.

Dan: That’s a fascinating concept.

I didn’t think about the fact that like, like gym culture has definitely changed a lot recently with influencer status and all that stuff. There’s this guy, Joey Swole.

Dave: I

Dan: love him. Really fascinating guy. Cause he was like, supposedly for a long time, he was kind of out the door in the fitness world. Um, people were like, you’re never going to go anywhere.

You’re never going to do anything. And regardless of what you think of him, he’s definitely is trying to keep at this place of it. It’s a struggle. That’s why I run because I, It’s the only thing that like, like I cannot lift 300 pounds off the ground, but if I’m out seven miles from home and the only way back is seven miles back, I can either walk it or I can run it or I can jog it.

But I have to get back home. There’s no shortcut. And that it’s so I hate it. It’s so it sucks. Like the other morning I got up early and I went outside and it was like wind, uh, advisories and it was raining and it was so cold and the whole run home. I was like, this is terrible. This sucks. Why am I doing this?

But I do it because it just, I don’t know. It just makes me feel better. But I stopped going to gyms for that reason. The weird judginess, the people with phone, uh, you know, cameras and all that stuff. That’s. That was the best thing my wife ever said to me, was build a gym in the basement. Home gym for the win.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I never got over the hump of just hating running I kept wanting to be a runner. I love reading books about especially like ultra runners and things like that Like I just love it like reading like Scott Jurek’s books and stuff like that But like every time I went to go run I was just like I understand that this is type 2 fun Like the point is not necessarily to enjoy it in the moment But But yeah, I never, I never made it past it.

So I, I just do long hikes and I’m getting into rucking and things like that now. If I can move slow and I can bring one of my dogs, like I’ll go, I’ll go for hours. Cause like we live right by, it’s a provincial park in our city. It’s literally across the street and it’s 13, 000 square acres and it’s forested and it’s protected land.

And so it’s like, I just go down there and I’ll walk for three, four hours some days when I have the time. Yeah, so I’m like backpack on and just go put some weights on my back and increase it a little bit But yeah,

Dan: have you read the comfort crisis by Michael Easter? No, you’d like that one. There’s a whole like So he it’s basically around this idea.

He goes to Alaska and The book is written sort of about his adventures there and then weaved through that Uh, landscape and that, you know, trials that he goes through and what it’s like on an actual hunt where he’s going up there to hunt something is his, like these stories about, you know, why we’re comfortable and how, um, you know, for millennia, we’ve just sought to get more and more comfortable.

And it turns out that’s actually not a good thing for us. Um, and then he talks about how he’s, he went to all these different places. I think he went to, um, Bhutan. And they have this thing where they like, they meditate on death, like where they will look at pictures of dead corpses and things and say, this is me.

And, um, but anyway, sorry, tangent, um, he, there’s a whole huge, um, like several chapters devoted to rucking and the benefits of it. How, like, you know, he has to carry these like antlers through the the frozen Arctic tundra on his back that are over 100 pounds and they’re cutting into his arms. And I’m like, yes, I want to start rucking for this, even though I can’t hunt and I won’t hunt and I don’t eat meat.

But, you know, whatever. Yeah.

Dave: Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, it’s interesting that like because I’ve always I’ve always wanted to be healthier, but I like I only I got diagnosed with ADHD in twenty twenty one. And like, it answered so many questions for me. Um, where I’m like, oh, I’m not broken. My brain just works in a different way.

And so it was always like, why, why is it that I want to go do this thing, but then as soon as I find it unenjoyable, I stop doing it. And it’s like, oh, that’s why. Because my brain is constantly seeking dopamine, and it’s not getting it from these things. And so it’s like with, with rucking or with hiking, it became this thing where it’s like, I can suffer, but I can do it in, like, I can supplement it with other things, right?

Like, I can have a really good audio book, or I can have my dog there and watch her just be so full of joy. And that gives me enough to go. It’s like, I was never able to find that with running, but it’s like, okay, I just had to find the thing where I could get that going. But yeah, it’s exercise, exercise is one of those things.

It’s just like, so fascinating.

Dan: And my wife, uh, was recently, it’s just like, maybe it’s coming up on just a year. Um, she was diagnosed as ADHD as a kid, but then re diagnosed adult ADHD, medicated and everything for it. And it’s interesting how, I didn’t understand the medication side of things. Um, she does cause she’s a lot smarter than me and more in tune with that.

There’s a huge difference, like night and day almost for her, um, having that diagnosis and the affirmation that comes from it, but then also medication that says like, here you go. Like, she, she’s like, I can just like get out of my own way. Like, it’s really interesting.

Dave: I fought the medication for, for a year and a half and then just recently started at the back half of last year and uh, I was having coffee with a friend yesterday who also just started medication and he’s like, he’s like, it feels like I’m reliving my twenties and I get to figure out who I am again.

Because now I get to do that without all the guilt and shame and like weirdness of my brain I just get to like you said get out of my own way and be like, oh I like this I like that. I’m capable of this. I can do that. It’s like yeah, that’s it’s it’s it’s wild But yeah, I fought the medication for so long.

So I’m like, look, I’m 42. I’ve had these coping mechanisms for so long You’re 42? I’m doing pretty well.

Dan: Yeah Yeah, man, you look great for 42.

Dave: Oh,

Dan: thanks. Look at you.

Dave: It’s all, it’s all that easy living. Um, but yeah, like it’s, it’s interesting. I find that just like having, having the chemical in my brain that says, oh, you can do this stuff now.

Allowed me to do so much more like I I just get up and I go to work now And I work for eight hours and then I feel like I did a lot of stuff and it’s like I’m not getting Distracted and I’m like, is this how everybody else lives? This is

Dan: what? Yeah, what did you just say about like? Oh, like I’m trying to figure myself out now or literally living my 20s I I wonder how many more times in my life That’ll happen, right?

Like, like, okay, in your twenties, you’re like, this is awesome. I’ve made it in my thirties. I’m just kind of like floating along. I’m doing my thing. I’m 38 and I’m like, I’m like, Oh, like I’m closing a chapter and I’m ready for this new thing, but I’m a beginner again in a lot of things. So it’s like, how many more times is that going to happen?

And I heard this thing recently that was like, like, it’s real. Sometimes the big feelings just like sit on top of you. It’s like, do I really know what I’m doing? You know, imposter syndrome, all of those things. And it’s like, do I really know what I’m doing? But then it’s, uh, I heard this reframe recently.

It’s like, okay, what if you just realize that the things you’re going through right now, the difficulties you’re going through right now, the things you’re figuring out right now, the work you’re doing right now is to make you into the person who you want to be. And I’m like, okay, I can live with that.

doesn’t get rid of all the big feelings that sit on top of you, but you know, it’s nice.

Dave: Yeah. I mean, those big feelings are going to be there. Um, there was a book, uh, I read about hiking the Appalachian, uh, Appalachian trail and, uh, and the one rule that this guy had for his own hike was no zero days. So a zero day is like when you stop in town, you do laundry, you eat fast food, you do whatever.

And he’s just like, I never want to have a zero day. That’s my only goal. Like if I stop in town, I’ll buy the groceries, I’ll have a shower, I’ll do whatever, but then I’ll hike to the next shelter before I stop for the night, kind of thing. Like, I never want to have a day where I stop, and then he went home and like, applied that to his life, where it’s like, look, some days, I only went a mile, and some days, I did 25 miles, or whatever.

And so when I applied that to my life and I realized that you can’t give a hundred percent every day, you know, you’re, you’re 38. So you’ll get this. Like we all grew up with that concept of like, give 110 percent and you’ll succeed. Like whatever you’re doing, always give it your all, you know, it’s just, it’s just not possible.

Right? Like sometimes you’re all. Is 1%. And so it’s like, now I look at some days where those big feelings are hanging over me and I still go like, but can I give 1 percent today? Because I know that if I just keep moving forward, I will eventually get out of this feeling because I can look back and see all those other times when I had imposter syndrome about something like being a photographer, when we started our business in 2009, like.

I was garbage, to be perfectly honest. Who wasn’t? Yeah, I was not a good photographer. And then it’s like, here I am now 15 years later, and we have a successful 15 year business. We’ve won awards. We’ve spoken on stages, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, oh, so that imposter syndrome will go away as long as you keep moving forward and just putting one foot in front of the other.

And it’s like, maybe you don’t make it very far today, but.

Dan: Make it a little bit. Yeah, that reminds me of this. I think the account on Instagram is called quoted visually maybe I’m not a hundred percent sure but it’s like a visual of like it’s like what people think consistency is and it’s like all these circles and Every single one of the circles is like filled up mostly to the top and then like the next row is like what it actually Is there’s all the same circles and they’re like like one’s filled up one’s halfway one’s filled up one’s like just a little bit and it’s like I wonder all these things that have been instilled into us, like the give 110%, like my dad always used to say, what you put on your plate, you eat.

That is, uh, something that to this day, like I, you know, the freshman 15, have you ever heard that? Yep. Okay. I, I had like the freshman 40 cause like, I could not watch people throwing away food at college. Um, so I would eat like other people’s food in, you know, high school and eat other people’s food. And it’s like, what are the things that our parents and their parents like just pass down?

And then what are the things that I’m going to pass down to my kids? And I’m like, Oh, this is a good lesson that my kids should learn and they should take with them. And then later they’re going to be like, why did you say that?

Dave: No, I have to go to therapy because of that thing. There’s one little thing.

Yeah. My dad’s favorite thing was always like, if we got like a 97 percent on a test, so like a versus like a, an a versus an a plus kind of thing, he’d always say, where’s the last 3%. Oh, that was always his thing of like, like, why didn’t you get a hundred? And so it’s like, we would work so hard and work so hard.

And then you’d, you’d get like a 95 on a test. You’d get on the honor roll, but it was never enough. And it’s like that, that, that carried me through for, for a really, really long time. It fucked me up. Like if it wasn’t perfect, like if I had submitted to an award and didn’t win the award, Oh man, like my wife were on vacation.

We were in London one time. And, uh, this like, uh, awards for like the best photographers in Canada came out and like we got third place or something like that. And I, I was beside myself, like I didn’t know how to deal with that because I was like looking at the other competitors. I’m like, Oh, we’re so much better.

Like I was so bummed and messed up about it. Like I didn’t know how to cope. We had a huge fight. My wife is like, I’m just going to go to a coffee shop and leave you alone. Oh man. And so it’s like, I just stopped submitting to awards for years after that because I’m like, I don’t like who I am. Like I didn’t know how to not be that part.

So it’s like, it was an all or none sort of thing. Thankfully, now I can deal with it and it’s not a problem. But yeah, it’s like all these little things that like to sit with us and affect us in such big ways.

Dan: It’s funny. Cause like the thing your dad says, like, I hear that. It’s like, okay, maybe, maybe that’s like a call to be self aware.

Like, what was the weakness that happened this time that you can do better next time or whatever. But like, damn. There’s that other, yeah, there’s that other side of it. It was never

Dave: malicious.

Dan: Yeah, of course not.

Dave: Yeah.

Dan: Um, my dad, so when I started my wedding photography business, I was living in my parents house, renting a second camera like every weekend, you know, it’s like I get up, you know, I’m a early 20 something.

So I’m a man at this point. I thought I was a man, you know, and, uh, I’m getting up and still leaving my parents house or whatever. And my mom would be like, okay, would you like an egg and cheese on a, sandwich this morning. And like, they would try to start these conversations as I’m trying to get out the door to head to, you know, wedding prep.

And I can, this is one of the positives that I can look back and say, Oh yeah, my dad would always be like, make it fun for him. Like every time I would leave, he’d always yell that. And I just standing in my parents kitchen, you know, I think about that every time, but like, I don’t know, this goes back to what we first were talking about where it’s like, what’s the perspective that I have.

Gained from being a parent and it’s like, okay, my parents did these things to me. What, what can I pass on to my kids? That’s going to open up their humility. That’s going to allow them to, you know, be others focused. That’s going to allow them to, I don’t know, all the things that you, you say and want to say to your kids, it’s like, you know, what am I going to mess up on?

You know, what can I do for that? I don’t know. It’s just all these things.

Dave: Yeah. It’s like, I, I always say, I joke with my, uh, one of my friends that we were having a conversation about how none of us, like we’re in our forties and neither of us feel like we’re adults. And, uh, I said, I’m like the reason that the moment that I realized I was an adult was the moment that I realized that nobody has it figured out and we’re all just making it up as we go along.

Yeah. The part when I started feeling better about being an adult is when I started addressing that with people. Cause like, I don’t have kids, so I’m not gonna, I’m not going to pass my stuff down to them, but I have nieces, I have friends, I have family, I have everything else like that. And when I started like having conversations about.

Everything, you know, it’s like, you know, just even with my wife over the last year, like re reassessing our marriage after nine years of marriage, marriage, but 14 years together of like, you know, how have I messed this up? Like, in what ways have I screwed these things up? Or, or, you know, other things like that.

It, like, it completely changed the way that we lived, because, like, you’re gonna screw it up, you’re gonna hurt people, all of these things are gonna happen, but you can minimize it by having awareness of that, and then having the conversations, and, like, I have those conversations with my parents now, like, after I had my ADHD diagnosis, they’re like, uh, no.

That’s you don’t have ADHD. And I’m like, a clinical professional has confirmed that I have this like I do get to say that’s not a thing, but. Let’s talk about it. And let’s talk about like this. None of this is fault on you. My parents, you know, it was like you, you did the best you could. Like, I look back on my childhood still with fondness, like it wasn’t a perfect childhood, but like, I’ve still like, I see the good stuff.

Was there bad stuff? Of course there was. Everybody has bad stuff in their childhood. And that’s why I go to therapy. But, but now I can have those conversations with my parents from a place of like, like no judgment of like, Let’s have a conversation about this because I see my parents doing the same thing to their grandkids that they did to my sisters and I and I’m like, Hey, let’s address this behavior.

Let’s talk about

Dan: this. There was this thing that like I can point to in my wife and my relationship that was a huge turning point. Uh, it’s called the love tank. Where this is like the fix it Dan coming out where it’s like, you know My my wife comes to me with like a thing and I’m like, all right, let’s do it.

Let me get my tools Let’s like do the thing instead of jumping into this this like tool I figure where I got it from help me just to say just to like listen and not Um, listen to respond, but listen to like what she actually needed. And it’s basically you say, okay, on a scale from one to 10, um, in your love tank, 10 being the most totally filled with love.

You’re full up, not one more drop of love and you’ll overflow. That’s 10. Uh, and one is completely devoid of love. You are empty. You need lots of filling. Where’s your love tank? And the response is, you know, if it’s anything other than a 10, your only response can be, okay, what can I do to make it a 10?

Okay. And then when they tell you, there’s no justifying it, there’s no anything. It’s just, okay, I will do my best to make that happen. And that’s it. And that was like a huge turning point that in the five love languages by Dr. Gary Chapman, like understanding that, you know, my wife does not care or like gifts.

So like when I’m, you know, giving her a gift, she’s like, Oh, this is nice. Thanks. And then that’s not how she wanted to receive love. But yeah, those like just learn how to communicate has been the Biggest change in my relationships with my wife, my kids, my friends, my clients when I went from like what I was supposed to say in a client meeting of like, let me sell myself to this is a journey of discovery about this couple and the fact that I photographed hundreds of weddings before this doesn’t give me any understanding of what this wedding means to this couple.

So let me just be like an alien and just soak it all in communication.

Dave: Yeah, bye. It’s one of those things where, my wife says all the time, the biggest myth about communication is that it happened. And I’m like, oh, yeah, yeah, that’s big for me, because like, I can be like, I can relive a conversation and be like, that went really well, and then we’ll talk about it, and she’s like, you didn’t listen to me at all.

I’m like, oh, whoops. Oops.

Dan: Two different worlds.

Dave: We do this exercise now called, uh, dyads, where you, you ask the same question back and forth, but the other person doesn’t get to say anything. Right. So it’s like, well, we usually start off with like, how are you feeling right now? And then the person answers for as long as they need to answer.

And then they ask that question back. And then you ask the same question again. And it goes like, it goes deeper and deeper and deeper every time until you feel like, Okay, the well has one run dry. Let’s move on to another question. And that’s when you could like address that some, something that they said.

So it’s like, you know, how are you feeling right now? It’s like, Oh, I’m feeling a little overwhelmed, but, and then they carry on. Then like, once you’re through that, the next question will be like, what has been overwhelming you lately? And then they go deeper and deeper and deeper, but it’s like this really interesting act of listening exercise.

That I sucked at when we first started because I immediately wanted to just start asking questions and solve the problem and do everything else like that. And, uh, we do it probably every two or three weeks. Um, as long as life allows to just like, we just sit there for like an hour, hour and a half and just like literally do this active listening, active speaking exercise, and it is one of the most.

Um, I did an episode, um, with Joss Woodsmith on this show, um, where he talked about communication being a temporary abdication of power. And that like, Um, Blue, my brain, because like the person listening has to release all power in that moment and just listen. They are no longer like actively participating in the conversation.

They are simply receiving, absorbing, and then responding. And when they respond, the other person abdicates their power and listens and whatever. I’m like, Oh. Cool. No one ever taught me that, like, I never knew that that’s how conversation was supposed to happen and communication is supposed to happen.

Dan: That’s one of the things that, like, I don’t know, in, in all aspects of our lives, I feel like we listen to respond, like, even, even in this podcast, I’m like, trying to be like, okay, like, stop thinking about the thing you’re gonna say when he finishes speaking, let me just be here and be present, but it happens all the time, like, we, we listen to respond rather than listening to understand.

I don’t know that it’s so tricky. When I don’t know, I just have like a different perspective than my wife. And I’m like, Oh, have you ever seen the the YouTube video where it’s like the one with a nail on her forehead?

Dave: Yeah, you

Dan: see that one? It’s super silly. It’s like it’s not about the nail Brad or whatever his name is.

But yeah, that that temporary abdication of power thing I saw you I think you posted a real about that or like a shortened clip of it. That one’s really powerful. Because I don’t know. It just, it just requires you to be so selfless, I guess. I don’t know. I’m not sure what the word I’m looking for, but like, I just think about it in the terms of like when I’m sitting with like a new client and what I used to do versus what I do now and what we’re told to do, like, you know, sell ourselves.

And you play a slideshow of your pictures. If you’re, you know, a photographer and you like, you know, do all this stuff to get you to sell. And I’ve had way more success of just like taking an actual interest in people rather than being interesting.

Dave: I think that’s the ultimate game changer, especially in sales of all things, is being interested in the person rather than trying to sell yourself because they’re already there.

You, they’re kind of sold on you already. If you’re in a meeting with them, they probably like your work or somebody has recommended them or, you know, things like that. And, and you can cover all of that stuff, but. It’s, it’s changed my perspective on how I have conversations with people. Because I’ve always been interested.

I mean, the podcast is called So Damn Curious. I’ve always been interested in people and things and different stuff like that. But I was a chronic responder. Like, As soon as you started talking, like my brain went, Oh, I wonder if it’s because we’re uncomfortable with silence. So when Dan stopped talking, I’m going to ask him if he thinks is that people are uncomfortable with silence.

But then I’m like, Nope, Nope, shed that. And I just listened. And it wasn’t until just now that that thought came back. But like, that was always my thing is like, I was just like waiting to pounce with my next thought. And then you’re no longer listening. Like you’re you’re formulating what you’re going to say.

And then you’re like, Wait, what did he just say? That might have been interesting. Well, it’s gone now.

Dan: Okay. Say my brain just went on like another tangent and I was thinking about literally the worst client interview I’ve ever had, like very early on. Do you want to hear a ridiculous story? I love ridiculous stories.

All right. So like way back in the day when I first started, it was all these things about what I expected, like a wedding photographer was supposed to be. I literally carried a briefcase with me, like a briefcase that had my album samples in it. And it was, uh, like maybe year one or year two. And this couple invited me to their house.

They’re like a little bit older than I was. They’re like early thirties. That’s like early twenties. And I left the, my, uh, parents house. I forgot to brush my teeth. So I was like, all that’s all I was thinking about and, uh, popped a piece of gum in and I’m chewing the gum. And I’m like, don’t forget to spit out the gum before you get in to this person’s house.

And so I’m in this person’s house and, uh, there’s a couple and we’re sitting there at the table. They give me a glass of water and we’re talking and I realized I’m still chewing the gum. And I’m all I’m thinking about is the gum and I’m like, I need to get rid of this gum so I can be with these people and like, you know, just be here because I’m so distracted by the gum in my mouth and I feel like I’m chewing like a cow and all this stuff.

And so I’m like, I’m just going to spit it into my briefcase, which is on the floor next to me. It’s like an open top, like accordion briefcase.

Dave: Yeah.

Dan: And so this couple, they’re like, I’m like, all right, I’m going to ask him a question. I noticed that they would like look at each other when I would ask them a question.

So I have a, I have a retainer in the bottom of my mouth, like a permanent retainer on the bottom. So I like, I like ask them a question. They look at each other and I’m like, okay, now’s my chance. So I quickly lean over the chair to try to spit my gum. into the briefcase. Why didn’t swallow it? It was beyond me.

And it got caught on my retainer. So it was hanging out of my mouth. So I quickly grabbed it and threw it into the, uh, briefcase that was on the floor. And I look back up and the couple’s just sitting there staring at me. And I wish I would’ve just been like, I’m out, I’m sorry. And I tried, but I tried to save it.

And they were like, there’s no saving it from this. So the point of the moral of the story is Don’t forget to spit out your gum, but be with the people who you’re with. I don’t know why that was the connection I made, like, from being present and like, thinking about the response to the time I had to spit my gum into my briefcase.

Oh, it’s a perfect

Dave: analogy. Because, like, you’re just so obsessed about this one thing that, like, Cause, I, yeah, like, I have to turn off Yep. When I having conversations with people, it’s like, no, do not like do not disturb on my phone, anything that can make a sound like literally on my, my second monitor right now.

Like I have my monitor up, but I have, there’s a website called black screen dot app where it literally is just a black website. So it’s like if I need to switch over to like a tab or whatever to like remind myself of something on your website or whatever I can, but otherwise it’s just a black screen.

So there’s no moving lights. There’s no pictures. If I go to a restaurant, I have to sit with my back to all the TVs because my brain will just just get distracted. Like I have to strip everything away because you, you do just constantly think about the gum, whatever the gum is. And so it’s like now I just, I’m honest about it.

Like if I’m out with a friend and something is distracting in the background, I will literally ask them. It’s like, This is really important to me. And like, there’s a lady petting a dog outside and it’s driving me crazy because I just can’t stop watching it. Can we switch seats or whatever?

Dan: Uh, there’s a, there’s this guy, John Acuff, who, um, posts videos.

Like if he’s traveling around the world, he posts like a picture of all the dogs that he wasn’t allowed to pet, like on his travels. It’s like, here’s a dog in London. I wasn’t, I wasn’t able to pet cause he’s like, you know, walking to a meeting or something. Yeah. The, the TVs in, in something or like the.

People next to you, like my wife and I, before we had kids and all this stuff, we’re just sitting, we’re having a nice conversation. We went out to a restaurant and then we started to hear like, just overhearing this conversation of two people talking about how if the Pope should sell the Vatican so that they could get lots of money and give it to the poor.

And we were just like enthralled in this conversation. Our conversation stopped. Both of us got fully distracted by this other thing. But yeah, what’s the gum? I don’t know. A lot of times it’s like, it’s me thinking like, how am I supposed to show up in this conversation? How am I supposed to like, like, who’s the me that I need to be?

In this situation, which goes back to what we were talking about before of like, how can I just be me versus like, Oh, these people see me as like the nice, happy Dan. I need to keep up that appearance or whatever it is. Or like, let me not step on any toes here.

Dave: Yeah, the gum. What’s the gum is just going to be a question that’s in my, it’s like, what’s the gum that’s happening?

What’s the gum? Do I need to spit out or swallow? Just get rid of it. Yeah, it’s so wild. And it’s like, I feel like this is a universal experience, right? Like the gum is different for everybody, but like everybody has this experience. And it’s like, I told, I tell my friends now, uh, it was like, ever since I got my ADHD diagnosis, I tell them, I’m like, look, I can be a chronic interrupter because I get really excited about the conversation.

And I think that I’m thinking ahead, so I know what you’re already going to say, so I’m just going to start the next sentence or whatever right away. If I do that, it is not rude, just tell me, Hey, you’re doing the thing. Like you’re, you’re, this is what’s happening. And now that’s my gum more often than not is I feel the interruption coming and I’m like, Okay, let it go.

Swallow the gum. Just like get back to listening, get back to that. It’s like, just like the awareness of these things completely changes how they work on you. Like the awareness of TVs and restaurants completely changed. It’s like now when I go in, like I will ask, I’m like the most socially anxious person ever.

Like I will, like if someone gets my order wrong, I just eat the wrong order. Like I will not send it back. But I have started asking servers, Hey, can we have a different table? Like is that one over there is fine. Is that booth okay? Because like, I know. For me and whomever I’m having that meal with to have the best experience, I need to get out ahead of it.

Because I’m aware of what’s going to distract me. And it’s been, it’s been huge just knowing what is going to lead to the best outcome. situation possible.

Dan: Two things came to my mind when you’re talking about that. One is like, how self aware it is to be like, this is something I need to, to ask somebody to be open immediately and be like, this is something I’m working on.

I need you to call me out on it, especially to a friend who’s like, not part of it. I mean, I don’t know how close your friends are, so I’m making an assumption here, but like, I asked my wife of that, right? Like I talk about family and how I try to show up for my kids. And I, I talk about that a lot, right?

My whole business is, you know, grow or my coaching business is about growing your photography business without sacrificing your relationships, your physical health, your mental health. And so when I make content, my wife hears it and I’m like, if, if I’m ever saying something that’s like not true, I need you to call me on that.

Right? Because I, I, what I’ve, I’ve defined like my betterness, my, like the place I’m trying to get to my growth as I just want to decrease the gap between my words and my actions. So that was the first thing that came to my mind of like, it’s so self aware of you to like ask for forgiveness, not forgiveness, ask for like this, um, feedback from somebody who’s like, not like a part of you or not like betrothed to you or, you know what I’m saying?

Like, yeah, they’re like, you know, um, but then the other thing, like when somebody else will have like their phone on the table and even if it’s face down, it’s like it’s a presence, it’s a presence. And it’s like, they’re not fully here with me. And I’ve, you know, I’ve realized that like on client meetings or something, they could be waiting for a call.

They could be doing anything. Uh, you know, I don’t have their trust yet. Maybe, I don’t know, maybe it could be an out for them or they’re like, Oh, this meeting is going terrible. Like, Oh, sorry, my mom’s calling. Got to go. Um, it could be any of those things. But yeah, I often think about that. Like all of this traction before we hopped on this call, I like moved all the papers that I had.

I moved like any little signs, like all that stuff. So it could just be like the two of us and my notebook. Yeah, those distractions. Yeah,

Dave: I love that. You can tell we’re both coaches because we’re both sitting here, you know, writing, writing little things down as we go

Dan: and also it acts

Dave: as a second brain for me.

Like if you say something that I know I want to get back to rather than like repeating it in my head over and over and over again. I read it down in my notebook, and then like I put a little star next to it is like this is something I’d like to return to later. Like I literally have like little pictographs for different things.

I put a box around it. If it’s for something that is for me after the call, like when he wrote out, he told me about the comfort crisis goes in a little box. This is for me. If it’s something I wanted to return to, like what am I capable of? It’s a little star. It was like those types of things. It’s just like, but I started doing that when I started coaching because I would just interrupt people with like, Oh, say more about this thing that you just mentioned because I don’t want you to finish your thought.

I need us to do this. And it’s like, that’s not a good way to communicate.

Dan: Yeah, that there’s a lot that goes into that beginning coach part where it’s like, am I a good coach? I need to prove that I’m a good coach and like make sure this person’s getting something from this meeting. And I’m like, go walk away with action tips and steps and all that stuff.

It’s like, no, man, just get out of your way and help him find the path.

Dave: Yeah. Speaking of coaching, you had something on your about page that really, really resonated with me when I read it. It’s it’s sort of like at the at the bottom of like your introduction. And it’s I’m just going to read it verbatim because I think it’s really genius.

Here’s a secret I’ve discovered about coaching. Chances are you already have the information in you to get from where you’re at to where you want to go. For some reason, though, you’ve pushed it down, hit it, didn’t believe it and set it aside. My favorite part about being a life coach is creating the space for my clients to uncover the strengths they’ve buried for years and take on their future with fresh eyes.

I a hundred percent agree with that, but can you expand on that for somebody maybe who has never gone through coaching? Why you, see that and, and how you work somebody through that process.

Dan: Let me make a definition first. I think coaching in the photography space is often confused with like consulting.

Which is like, here’s my one, two, three steps to success that you’re going to buy my framework. You’re going to buy my course. And like, no knock on that. Right? Like that works. Like I bought courses, I use those things. There’s some things that are sort of universal. Then it’s like, I want to know this system.

I’m going to do that. I’m going to buy your system and I’m going to see if I can implement it. The way that I coach is like, All right. Let me make another tangent and I’ll bring it back. Um, do you know what the Quakers are? Um, yep. Okay. So they have this thing called the clarity council, clarity council.

Yeah. I think that’s right. Um, clarity community. Yeah. Something like that where it’s, if you’re in that community and you are going through something, you’ve got a problem or something, you can create a clarity council and it’s elders from that community. It’s, you know, you get to pick who’s on it. And the, community really only has like one job.

And there’s, there’s a couple rules. It’s that you cannot give advice. You can’t explain anything. The only things you can do is ask a question about something that the person has just stated, or, um, you can reiterate what they just said. And that’s it. And it’s a lot of times like a lot of us just don’t need more to think about more advice.

We need this space within which we can sort of work our way through it. And sure, there are times when individuals need like, you know, how do I set up my LLC? Well, I’m not going to ask the question of like, well, what things have you tried? Like, no, it’s like here, you can just go to this place, you can do this thing.

But a lot of times when it comes to like, what does this look like that you want, you’re at point a. And you want to get to point B, but you just like, don’t believe, uh, enough in yourself or there’s a million things that are keeping you from getting there. I think a lot of times it’s self belief it’s, we’re worried that we’re going to waste our own time, uh, and it’s not going to pay off.

It’s a million different things. And I think my job as a coach, or at least how I define coaching is to insert myself in that space and allow people to cross that. Like. Crystal bridge or whatever it is, or go through the forest or whatever. I don’t know. Um, to look at what they actually want aside, uh, aside from what the industry says, aside from the six figure stuff that everybody puts out there, aside from like all of that stuff, what is your point B?

What is your version 10? Let’s unpack the beliefs that you have and the knowledge you have and build on that like what do you have within you that you need to double down on to get you there. I think a lot of people already have it built in within them. They just need somebody to be a supporter, have accountability, um, you know, any of those kind of things, but it’s not advice.

Rarely.

Dave: Yeah. That, that was a big shift for me as, cause like when I did my coach training, you learn all the tools, you learn how to like guide people through things, but I still think probably for the first year or two of my coaching business, like I was an advice vending machine. Like, that’s just tough.

That just what I was doing. And then, and then you start to realize and uncover like the real reasons why people aren’t getting where they’re going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like that transition was really hard for me because like I would see what was going on right away, didn’t know how to get them there.

But then I would be like frustrated with my clients of like, why aren’t you seeing this now? It’s like, it’s so clear. And so like, when I read that on your website, like it just resonated so much because that’s what I tell people all the time. I’m not here to give you advice. You already know the answers.

I’m just here to help you figure out why you can’t see it. And, and we’re going to get there. And like, just, just simple questions of like, why is that important to you? Or, you know, say more about that. Or why do you think that is? And then people stop and they go. Oh, or my favorite thing is, is when they don’t even say something like I, I only do my coaching through video calls.

When I, when I learned my program was literally all over the phone. Um, which was weird in 2017, like video calling existed and like the Martha Beck life coaching Institute is a pretty big organization, but they did everything over like like, like group phone calls. Interesting. And it drove me crazy because if I need body language, yeah, I started doing my own coaching and like I would see somebody like they would cover themselves up or you know, they would turn away.

It’s like now I can immediately be like, Oh, there’s the trigger. Something in my notebook, let them get through it and be like, Hey, so when you said this thing, you covered your throat. Mm hmm. And they’re like, wait, I did. Oh no. And they’re like, they feel like they got caught out in something. I had one client who she’s like, I don’t want to turn my camera on because I know you’re going to see all my secrets, but it’s just like, it’s just like, yeah, the answers are already there.

You know why you’re not getting to the level of success or point B or whatever. I’m just going to help guide you to those answers.

Dan: I’m thinking about like all these different people that I have and there’s like things that like, yeah, you’re right, like they pop up right away and it’s like, oh, this is like definitely a thing for you, but why can’t you see that?

But I don’t know. It’s really tricky in our industry where like coming across individuals who are like, you know, I want to hire you for coaching. This is the problem I need to solve. What would you do? It’s like, it doesn’t matter what I would do. I’m not you. I think there’s also just this lack of clarity where it’s like we hit at what we aim at.

But a lot, a lot of us haven’t really defined crystal clear. What is it that you want to aim at? Because it, I mean, sure, it could be six figures, but like, that’s not the only goal, but that’s the goal that seems to be, you know, thrown out there as the worthy goal for your business. But like what crystal clear, like what is it that you want to get at?

And I find when, when we just really get very nitty gritty on that, like let’s define that all these things start opening up. It’s like, Oh, like this thing that I do over here. doesn’t actually help me to get there. Yeah. It’s just like, you, you just need somebody to have like this space to just ask you questions about like why you do this thing or why you do that thing.

Cause a lot of us just float along. Like, are you, you’re pretty outdoorsy. Have you ever been in a canoe? Yeah. Yep. Okay. So you’re going down a canoe on a river and you don’t realize how fast you’re going until you’re on the shore watching another canoe go by. It’s like, how many days are we just in the canoe?

We’re like, yeah, this is awesome. We’re going through and all of a sudden you get to the end of the day and you’re like, I haven’t done anything. Um, or, you know, I haven’t done anything of some substance or whatever it is. It’s not until we get out of the boat and onto the shore or have somebody else there who’s like, yeah, you see how fast that’s going.

Yeah. Let’s like, how can we slow that down? And you just start, I don’t know, bringing attention to these things. That seems to be where real growth happens. Yeah.

Dave: It’s wild. Like the whole, we’ve both, I think, I feel like we both have railed on the six figure thing and, and I mean, I think for good reason, like it was, it was an easy mark for a long time in our industry and, and this is no slate at anybody like great branding.

I had one, one potential coaching client come to me and, you know, I’m not as successful as I want to be. I’m not making these numbers. I’m not doing everything else like that. We had like, usually my consults are probably about 20 to 30 minutes just to like fit to see if we’re gonna, we’re gonna be a good fit.

And this one had gone on for about like 45 minutes, almost an hour. And I literally said to the person at the end, I’m like, okay, so what I’m hearing is you already have all the success that you want. You told me like you’re happy in your life. You’re able to do all the things that you want to be able to do.

You’re working with the clients that you want to be working with all the rest of this. Why are you here? And they literally said, well, I’m not a six figure photographer and that’s all I see. And so I don’t think I’m successful because I’m not making that much. And I’m like, you’re already successful. You have everything that you want.

I’ll work with you if you want me to work with you, if you can give me a tangible goal, but like, if we make you the extra, it was like 13, 000. Like it was, it was such a negligible amount of money over the course of a year. I’m like, I can get you 13, 000 in probably six weeks, you know, like, or less, like, this is not a problem, but like, it won’t make you any happier.

Yeah. And I remember this person just sort of sat back and went, huh. I’m like, great. You have the answer. Thanks for hanging out. And then I met them at WPPI a year later and they bought me a beer and they’re just like, Hey, that was like the best thing ever. Because like immediately within a 45, within 45 seconds of you challenging me on that one point, all of a sudden I was happy.

Dan: That’s so wild. Like, yeah. Why is it that we, I mean, this comes back to, it’s like, why is it that we, suppress our internal voice and, and like our intuition and all that stuff for the external validation or the goals that somebody else says are valuable. And I mean, I’m part of it, right? Like the, I tell the story often, like I hit six figures, like my second year in business because I shot every wedding under the sun that came to me.

You know what? I missed a lot of my friends birthday parties. I missed like, that’s like my 20s. Like you’re supposed to be like hanging out with friends and it’s sort of carefree. And I was like working every weekend at doubles and don’t get me wrong. Like, you know, I learned a lot. I hustled through that time, but like, if I could go back, it’s like this time I can’t get back.

And you know, now in some ways, like I make less money now than I did in those early years. By choice, because like, and you said this on my podcast, Focus Photographer’s Podcast Episode 52. Um,

Dave: I wrote it down

Dan: before we got on. I want to try to put that in here somewhere. You said this on my podcast that your definition of success is getting to walk your dogs in the morning for a couple hours, right?

So you like try to not schedule calls or whatever till after that. It’s like. What can we define success like if my definition of success is like feeling like I’m useful um, to my family and to other individuals, getting to. Swing in my hammock in the backyard when it’s nice out or working from the deck, then my definition of success is pretty low.

And if I want less, like, I don’t know, it, it, that makes it, that takes it off of the money thing. Now, don’t get me wrong. Like I like hustling towards my financial goals. Like money’s good. It’s nice. And you know, it’s going to help my family and all that stuff. But there’s a point at which like the sacrifice.

the juice is not worth the squeeze. You know, like I, I, I really liked, you know, Alex Hormozy is muscly guy. Um, you know, I read his book, like I love, I love that mantra of like, I’m going to sleep at my gym. You know, a lot of these entrepreneurs and founder stories of like, we slept at the office, you know, that’s all we did.

We, we, uh, worked on the UX, the UI, we did all the things and, and I love that energy, but I’m not trying to build the next million billion dollar company. Maybe I could have been trying to build a million dollar company, but that’s not my goal. My goal is, you know, and I think that’s not generally speaking what most people’s goals are.

It’s let me provide for my family. Let me spend time with them. And there’s a lot of that advice that is really geared toward people who don’t have kids and, um, you know, who can afford to not, to not show up at their family’s soccer game and all that stuff. So it’s like, how do we find that balance between hustling in your business and.

I’m doing things that fulfill you and are good for money, but also you get to be your kid’s soccer games and you get to have a really lovely dinner with your kids because your home and all that stuff.

Dave: All right. So I’m going to say something that I have, I have no education background on this whatsoever.

It is a hundred percent of feel, but I think this is a systemic problem, right? Because right from day one in school, we’re chasing the A, a grade, a number, an externality, and then that just becomes money. And it’s, it’s an unfillable cup, right? Because like you get a million dollars, you want 10 million, you get 10 million, you want a hundred million dollars, you get, you get the a.

How come you didn’t get the a plus, you know, you, you get the a plus, well, then you got to go into honors programs. And you know, it’s like that sort of thing of like, it’s these, I don’t want to call them vanity metrics, but they kind of are vanity metrics because they don’t actually talk about like, are you learning or are you just really good at rote memorization?

Are you enjoying your process? Are you moving in the directions that you want? Um, are like, I really like, I think it’s, I know it’s in Germany and I think it’s also in Scandinavia, where high schools like college, you actually start your college track earlier on where it’s like, if you want to be a mechanic, you go to like mechanic high school.

If you want to be in STEM, you go to a STEM high school, you know, these types of things. Because like when I went to high school, I took the classes that I took so that I could get into a post secondary education, not because I liked them, not because these were the things that I was actually interested in, but because that was going to get me to the next level.

And then I do that level so that I could get to get the degree so that I could get the job at the next level and things like that. Like I wanted to go to art school and be a photographer. I actually wanted to be a war photographer or a national geographic photographer growing up. Dude,

Dan: no way. You too.

Yeah. You know, James knocked away. Like, dude, I watched his documentary war photographer at least a thousand times in college. Like, I don’t know if I can go into the war part, but like, yeah, yeah. I was obsessed with that.

Dave: Yeah. I grew up reading my dad’s net geos. Like he had a whole, like, he still has them all.

Like he’s got a wall of yellow. That’s all his natural, not geos. And that’s what I wanted to do. And my dad’s like, ah, there’s no money in that. Like go, go to college, get an engineering degree. You know, you like computers, so why don’t you become a computer engineer? You know, it’s like turn your hobby into a job, which we all know goes super well.

But like, I think that’s why people don’t know how to define success or find happiness anymore because that externality of what we’re supposed to be chasing. is the thing that we go after. And then there’s so much survivorship bias from guys like Alex Hermosi. Like there are more people who have failed at business than have succeeded, but we see the people that succeed.

And then these like stories come out of like, this is how I did it. I slept at the gym, I did whatever. And you’re like, okay, well, that’s the way that we have to do it. And then we make ourselves unhappy to try to hit that same. marker or whatever.

Dan: This reminds me of this. I really like stories and parables and all that stuff.

There’s this book, uh, the psychology of money by Morgan Housel. I’m pretty sure this is where this comes from, but I don’t know, success and, and enough are synonymous to me. Like what’s enough, right? Like the ability, uh, when I got really clear, like, what are my finances, what like is all the things, like how much do I actually need was the most freeing thing for me because it had meant that I had the ability to say no to work.

Like, all right. When I get to, 15 weddings. I know that anything over top of that is gravy. My whole, my bills are covered for the year, all that stuff, savings, everything, the ability to say no and say like, okay, this is enough for this year, this year. Um, it’s about family. I need, like, I feel like the pendulum has swung too far in this direction.

I just need to like, you know, reign it in next year, you know, maybe I’ll take 30 weddings or whatever, and really, you know, build up the cash reserves or save up for a family trip or whatever it is. But that defining enough is really interesting. And there’s a story. I’m pretty sure it’s from the psychology of money by Morgan Housel, where there’s an artist and an author and they’re standing in a party and they’re chit chatting and whatever.

And all of a sudden a billionaire walks in and the author having noticed or like notice that the billionaire walks in and having written about them and, and all this stuff starts talking to the artist about The billionaire, how much they’re worth, um, how they got their money, what their investments were and all that kind of stuff.

And the artist sort of like on amused, it’s like, well, I have something that the billionaire would never have. And the author is like, what, what could you possibly have? And the artist says enough, I have enough. And I don’t know, just think the clarity around it, just the clarity around success, like all that stuff is just such a necessary conversation in all of these industries.

But You know, also in our specifically, because again, there’s like one metric of success. Like you’re, you know, uh, one time client of, Oh, I haven’t reached six figures. So I’m not successful. I haven’t gotten to a 10 K club. So I’m not successful. That’s just a tricky Messaging to be in

Dave: it’s, it’s good formulas, but the formula doesn’t always answer the problem, right?

Like it’s like, I always say that the worst business advice you can give anybody is raise your prices because it is a completely uninformed answer. You don’t know what market they’re in. You don’t know what they’re photographing or doing or whatever. And so it’s like raising your prices could be the most detrimental thing that they could do for their business.

And so it’s like, it, it used to be my go to, right? Because that’s what I was told, you know, hearing, like when we started photographing Jasmine star said, every time you book a wedding, raise your prices, 300. And like all the rest of this. And it’s like, so we did cause we didn’t know any better. And it’s like, now we haven’t changed our pricing.

We actually lowered our prices a little bit this year because we wanted to work more. Yep. And so we’re just like, okay, let’s just lower our price.

Dan: Isn’t that like photography suicide? You wrote, lowered your prices. Can you believe it? Dude, I’ve been doing this 15 years. I think I understand what I’m doing.

Yeah, there’s this like, again, there’s a quote by Alex Formosy from his, from his book, a hundred million dollar leads. And he talks about like, like, I’d rather over deliver and have like cashflow coming into my business and know the things that I need to adjust based on the data that I’ve collected from people coming into my business and then be able to.

make those adjustments and that kind of thing. And I think so many photographers really want to go from like the 500 session to 10, 000 today and tomorrow. And I was, I was coaching, had a call this morning and you know, this photographer gets like 850 for a shoot and burn family session. I was like, that’s not terrible.

Like that’s fine. But what she was doing for that was a lot.

Dave: Yeah.

Dan: And everybody just kept saying, You know, if you want to raise your prices, raise your prices. I was like, that’s one variable. But like, if all your sessions are at sunset. and you’re taking two hours and you’re giving them 150 photographs and you can only do one session a day.

It’s like, what are the other variables that maybe just to keep cashflow coming into your business that you can adjust? Maybe you can do a less of a session. Maybe you can just do a couple hours, uh, earlier in the day and just find a really shady forested spot if you don’t want to shoot in the sun. But it’s like, there’s other variables that play here that might make.

that 850 worth it while you’re trying to develop yourself and your systems and your marketing and the way you speak to your clients to get to that point where you’re making several thousand dollars for a family session. You know,

Dave: I get why systems exist and formulas exist and these courses that, you know, promise things exist because It can work for, for a wide variety of people, but it doesn’t work for everyone.

And then I think people get caught up in, in those, those types of things. And I mean, this isn’t just a business or a photography thing. This is just everything, right? Like, Oh, just, just go run a mile a day and you’ll be healthy forever. Or, you know, go work out in the gym or do CrossFit or do whatever.

Like there’s all of these things that it’s just like, if you just do this, then you will be happy. Then you will be successful. But it just. It’s just, it doesn’t take into account life and variability and all the rest of that. So it gets complicated. That’s why I love coaching, because I get to play in those edges and challenge people on those assertions and ask people.

Why is that important to you? What is your definition of like, when I ask people what their definition of success is, and they don’t have an answer. I’m like, well, that’s point number one that we got to figure out because otherwise I can, I can book you 30 weddings a year, if that’s really what you want, I don’t know if that’s going to make you happy.

Yeah.

Dan: Don’t you have a success story about that? Melissa and. Oh, yeah. Most than

Dave: Kyle. Yeah. They, they came to me as wedding photographers wanting to, they were rebranding, they wanted to like focus in on new types of clients and, and like uplevel their, their business and everything else like that. All the things that everybody says.

Yeah. And, and so like I started them on that path and then it was like probably two or three months in, I’m like, I don’t think this is what you’re looking for. And they’re like, what do you mean? And I’m like, well, you, every time we talk about weddings, you guys say you love the people, but you hate the work.

Why are we trying to put more of this type of work in front of you? And now she runs a service based business, helping, uh, clients, photographers and businesses set up their CRMs and workflows. And she does that. Loves it. She just hired two people. She’s got a full company now and he’s a photographer for the Kansas City Chiefs and Royals and the WPPGA and Ironman and Travels are all around and they’re so much happier.

Like he’s got to go to the Super Bowl and photograph the Super Bowl instead of doing and it’s not no shade on weddings. I still like weddings but it wasn’t what was making them happy. Those are always my favorite success stories when somebody comes to me for coaching for one reason and we go an entirely different direction.

Like, um, I’m not gonna name them, but we have some mutual friends who, who I have coached both of them and they owned a very successful multi million dollar business. And I, I coached them and now they, they live in a, another country and they’re a loving life and it’s a completely different life than, than what they had.

And I’m not going to take all the credit for that. That was 99 percent them 1 percent me, but it wasn’t originally why they came to me for coaching. And like, to me, that’s the greatest success. So we’re able to uncover what they truly want.

Dan: thing. That’s interesting. How many times, like, I wonder what that is.

I mean, there’s another like really great reason for coaching. It’s like you think you want one thing. And, you know, as soon as you start like diving into it and digging into it, you realize like that’s all that external pressure from an industry or family or whatever. Like my wife has a good friend who was like a journalist at the Washington post and all that stuff.

She got out of that job because basically her family pressured her to become a doctor. And it’s just like, It’s not really fulfilling her or anything. And I’m just like, man, that’s so tricky to like, when we can, when external pressure so heavy that it can just sway us off of what path we actually want for ourselves.

And there’s no

Dave: one formula to get you to the other side of that.

Dan: No,

Dave: I wish there was, you know, read this book, you’ll be fine. But it doesn’t work like

Dan: that. I’m trying to actually, I’m trying to do this thing now where I like read a book and actually do the things in the book rather than just saying, I like read a hundred books this year or read 50 books this year.

Yeah. I’m trying to actually do the podcast

Dave: I loved about, I don’t know if it’s still running, but I listened to it for a while. It was called by the book. And it was these two women who would read a self development book. And then for, I think it was two weeks or something like that. Yeah. Two weeks or whatever.

Like, Everything that that book had said to do and, and like some of it, they were like, this was great. And other ones are like, nah, this isn’t, this isn’t.

Dan: I’ve been wondering, I think I read that because, or I think I listened to that same one. Cause there’s a book by Jensen, Cheryl called like, you are a bad ass how to stop doubting yourself and live an awesome life.

And there was like critiques of that book that I hadn’t suggested, like in that book, she talks about how she had manifested this. being able to sit in like a cabin and overlook the Adirondack mountains or something like that. And she manifested and everybody’s like, yeah, but you also have friends who have houses like that.

Like, yeah, I don’t have people who like have a house in the Adirondacks or whatever it is. Um, but yeah, I thought it was interesting that they did that, but they, you know, I, I, I, I wonder what, like what things stuck past the two weeks, like two weeks doesn’t sound like enough time to decide if something really works or not.

Dave: Yeah. But yeah, I, I, I try, I try to take one thing. I look at books as sort of the, like, I don’t, I couldn’t fix a car to save my life. I don’t know anything about cars. Um, but When it came time to like change my oil or like put air in my tires or whatever, I go to the manual and I like read the appropriate section and I figure out the thing that I need to do.

And I, and so like I see books as sort of like the manual to life. Right. And so it’s like when I have a problem or I’m facing something, I try to find a book on it. I read the manual. And then I was like if I could just take one thing out of this and apply that to my life, that’ll be great. That’s, it’s the same thing like if I go to a con photography conference and I see a speaker.

My goal is always what’s one thing I can take away, you know? There might be 99 things in this that are completely irrelevant to me, but there’s gonna be one thing that’s beneficial So it’s like books are the manual to life and I read so many of them because of that

Dan: I wonder if the exception is reading books I I don’t think that a lot of people more people than Then not that I talked to her like I don’t like I can’t stand reading and I like to read And I, I don’t know.

That was me for a long time. And I found Audible. I want to make a case like some people like, Oh, I just learn off of Reddit. It’s like, I like Reddit. I like Reddit a lot. It’s a cool place to dive. But like, there’s so much thought and research and effort put into a book that’s just not put into somebody who’s spending like, you know, 10, 20 minutes responding to a comment.

Dave: Yeah,

Dan: I like books. I wish I had more time to read them, but I’m trying to like read them regularly, but I want to read them more. But it’s, it’s always surprising to me when like, I will hear from somebody who they’re struggling in their business or struggling with something and they haven’t thought to like, Oh, let me look up and see what kind of books there are on this topic or somebody who’s gone through this issue before and what perspective I can gain from just reading their story.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s totally a cheat code and it’s not for everybody, but there’s so many different ways to do it now. Like you can audio book it, you can ebook it like I read in very different ways. Like if I’m reading a nonfiction book, like the one that is behind you, ego is the enemy, you know, like I’ll read that on my Kindle because I can highlight like crazy and then I’ll take that highlight file afterwards and like that becomes my, my knowledge.

If I’m reading a fiction book. That could be a paperback. It could be an audio book. Um, if I really like a book and I want to get the lesson out of it, I listen to it while I read it. Yeah, I’ve heard that. It’s like, I absorb everything. It’s wild.

Dan: That’s interesting. Yeah. I haven’t gotten to that point yet.

The Kindle though has changed, literally changed how, how well I read. Um, the, the percent sign in the bottom right corner is, is like, uh, what is it Freud who did the bell thing?

That’s it. Like, I’m just like, Oh, I need to get to 30 percent before the end of the night or whatever. Um, but yeah, I’ve read way more books on my Kindle than I have in paperback because I can carry it everywhere. My wife calls it a safety book or no emergency book, not like an emergency blanket, but like emergency book.

She has a book everywhere she goes all the time. It’s funny. She reads a lot of fiction, so it’s like these massive, thick, huge books that she’s like stuffing into her purse. It’s not like a little tiny. Kindle.

Dave: Yeah, I also read a lot of fiction and like a lot of like fantasy and sci fi where the books are like a thousand pages long.

So thank God for Kindle because no, I just couldn’t

Dan: otherwise. So much. Yeah, I like reading. Yeah, it’s something you have to cultivate though and you have to be patient. It’s another thing that’s really tricky is trying to get people to be patient.

Dave: Yeah, I had to get back in the habit of it. Like I was my whole family are readers and we were all very voracious readers when I was young.

Like I would read a book a day. Like it was insane. Like on summer holiday, I’d probably read five books a week. Uh, and then out of college, I just, I found I couldn’t read anymore. I don’t know if it was attention span or whatever it was. And that’s when I found Audible. I’ve done over 500 books on Audible since I got my subscription with them.

Um, but it was in the last maybe two or three years when I started like reading, reading again. And now my wife has gotten into reading. And so we, this is the old manius thing I’m going to say, but we had to replace our bed cause our mattress was getting old. And so we bought an adjustable bed so that we could put it into TV mode.

And so we sit in there, we read at night where we’re just like, we’re propped up, our dogs asleep at our feet and we just read. It’s the best, it’s the best

Dan: thing. That sounds like success. To be able to do that guilt free rather than. Editing pictures really late at night or whatever it is. Like that sounds like, like success to me.

My wife, my favorite thing to do is she was, she grows up from a family of readers. Like her dad, when, Uh, they were like three or four years old. He was reading like the Belgariad series, um, by David editing, uh, by David Eddings or, um, he was reading Lord of the Rings to them as like, well, they’re just like sitting on the floor playing Legos or whatever.

And my favorite thing now to do is. I will sit next to my wife and try to finish a page in the same amount of time that she does, but she can fly through books. I’m an enormously slow reader, but like I’ll get maybe a little more than a quarter of a page before she’s like turning the note on her Kindle.

She’s It’s amazing.

Dave: Yeah. If I’m listening and reading at the same time, I have to listen at 2x speed to keep up with my reading, which I could never sit there and listen to an audio book at 2x speed because it would drive me crazy. But if it’s just a voice while I’m reading along, then it’s really helpful.

Dan: Oh, I need to try that. I need to try the speed up, speed up listening. I will do that. I

Dave: do, I do all my audio books now at either 1. because I find it doesn’t chipmunk their voice. So it doesn’t sound weird. But like a 40 hour book becomes a 28 hour book or something like that. Like it really, really changes the amount of time that you’re, you’re listening so I can read more.

It’s the best. What’s, what’s, what’s your favorite book to gift somebody or to like recommend to somebody?

Dan: There’s two. It’s money because a lot of people I think can live off of less than they actually are if they just sort of like increase their awareness around it. There’s two books I really like one I’ve referenced already, which is the psychology of money by Morgan Housel.

And for somebody who doesn’t read, it’s a great book, because it’s rather than being 20 chapters on one thing, that’s like a lot of fluff and stories, like how I like to talk. Um, it’s like 20. single chapters on like very specific points in each chapter and they’re not long and the stories are really good.

He’s a great writer. Um, and the other book is called a simple path to wealth by JL Collins. Um, and there’s just a really great chapter in there. Like, do you know Mr. Money mustache? Um, yeah, or he was actually Canadian. I think he moved to the United States, um, way back in the day. All the good Canadians do.

What is his actual name? I can’t remember it. Um, Peter Adney. And there’s another guy, uh, Jacob Lund Fisker, who’s from Early Retirement Extreme. And there’s just like, like, that’s one way side over here. But I just like seeing how other people live on this, like, very simple way. And it’s like, maybe there’s a blend in there of Like, this goes back to, you know, kids and all that stuff is like, what things am I spending on that are unnecessary?

What things are distracting me? And even just that book, or those looking at their lifestyles and other lifestyles of people who are in that fire movement and stuff is really interesting because of how far you can make money go if. I had a very toxic relationship with money for a very long time. Um, and only over the last like maybe six years have I really reined that in and paid off a lot of the debt that I had from making stupid decisions and overpaying and all that stuff.

So,

Dave: yeah, a lot of people have, I read Jen Sincero’s book about you’re a badass at making money. And that was like my first book about Like earning and wealth and stuff. It’s a bit saccharine and like, not, doesn’t really like, it’s a good mindset book to get you started so that I don’t know what that word means.

Uh, like, like fakely sweet and like simple and things like that. But it’s

Dan: like some big words use voracious a little bit ago. Saccharin man, bring the vocabulary down. Keep it easy for the rest of us.

Dave: Sorry. I’m just challenging his word of the day. Um, but yeah, like I read that one and then that introduced me to other books because I loved books about business and I loved books about process and I loved books about system, but like I wasn’t.

reading books about money. And like, I, I knew I had a bad, like, I had like a, Ooh, gross, keep it over there kind of relationship with it. And so that one was very easy. You know, it’s like a, it’s like a Dan Brown book of money where it’s like, it’s a beach read, you know, like it’s, it’s not, you don’t have to spend a lot of time understanding it, but it opened my doors so that I could go then read other, other monies, but money books.

But

Dan: yeah, that Yeah, you said like you keep money over there. There’s like these, um, the Klontz Money Script Inventory. You ever heard of this? No. Um, K M S I, if you like Google it. It’s basically like, I think this guy, his name’s Brad Klontz, and I’m pretty sure he was a, or is a financial psychologist, or I don’t know what his actual term was, but he basically came up with these Five categories.

Let me see if I can remember them all off the top of my head, of like people’s relationships with money. It was money avoidance is the first one and the most, the most common, uh, it was like people just these, these individuals are people who like they, they want to avoid money totally. They think sort of money is sort of like the root of all evil.

Um, they, they might actually even look at individuals who have a lot of money with sort of disdain and like they’re actually better than them because they, they like live a more pure life or something. Then there’s, uh, the money worshipers who like think that basically money is going to solve all their problems.

They just need to get more of it, that kind of thing. Then there’s money status, which is, I’m wearing my wealth. Um, my net worth equals my self worth kind of thing. Yep. I feel like there’s one I’m missing, but the last one is, Money vigilance.

Dave: I have, I had a different, I have a different for that. I asked like, what am I coaching intake form?

It’s very, very similar, but I honestly couldn’t tell you where I got it from at this point in time. It’s one of those pieces of information you just pick up, but I ask people their money mindset and it’s, I have, um, achiever. So you define success by budgeting for clear, tangible goals, helps you feel controlled and prepared.

Balancer, which is defined success by getting the best deal in each transaction, maximizing rewards and staying on your financial plan. Uh, experiencer, which is what I am. Uh, you define success by enjoying the present. You seek delight in how you choose to spend money. Um, and then explore, which is, you define success by saving money and making trade offs so you can be happy and live comfortably.

Like, it’s kind of the same sort of idea, but like, I ask people that because it’s like, do you think there’s never enough? Do you think there’s always enough? Or. Do you not think about it at all? And I was definitely a not think about it at all person for a long time.

Dan: Yeah. I was a avoidant through and through.

Like I remember seeing things in, you know, the younger, it’s just like in middle school, you know, seeing these like strange things and you’re naive and you’re like, Oh, you know, who are the people who are always driving past us and cutting us off? Um, they’re the fancy Audis and Mercedes. Like, Oh, so like you, those people have money.

Like, why are they driving like that? Maybe money changes people or there’s like a family who won a ton of money and they were in my middle school and come to find out like years later, their family got a divorce. Do I know whether like the money hat was, was the cause of that divorce? No. But like in my young mind, I was thinking like, Oh, like, I can’t believe they were like the perfect family.

Um, how would they get a divorce? And all I could think of was like, Oh, they won this, like, crazy sum of money, millions of dollars. And that must have ripped their family apart. Or you’re seeing like my mom worked as a Mary Kay lady, which was like makeup. And then she was a teller. And my dad worked as a produce manager.

And then he would work in the evening selling like siding at Sears. And I’m seeing like, okay, my parents are doing all this work, working really, really hard. And yet it doesn’t feel like we’re making it. Like we’re, we’re taking a step ahead. And I just remember feeling like, If, like if money is not available to them and they’re doing all this hard work, money must not be available to me.

And then that eventually turned into adulthood thinking credit cards are the way to success and you have to use credit cards to get the things you want because that’s how else would you get money. And that led to a lot of debt. And then I had to come to Jesus moment in like 2018 and all that stuff.

But yeah, it’s just avoided it all.

Dave: Yeah. My wife always says that money doesn’t change. It reveals. And I was like, Ooh, yeah, I get that. Yeah. It doesn’t make you an evil person or whatever. It just enhances who you already are. It gives you the capability to do more of who, who you are and what you want.

Dan: Yeah. And I was terrified. I mean, that is, I was terrified that if I, when I was started making really good money, um, I was like, Oh my gosh, I’ve got a lot of this. I need to get rid of it. And so I would like spend it on anything I possibly could. And a lot of it was like stupid little things like 30 bucks at a cafe here, 30 bucks there, 20 bucks here.

Let me just like upgrade to first class on this, uh, trip that I’ve got to go to that. I’m already not making enough money shooting this wedding in another state. Yeah. Just all kinds of stupid mistakes when I was, you know, early when I didn’t, didn’t try to increase my financial literacy.

Dave: Well, I think I’ve taken up enough of your time and I will definitely have to have you back for another episode because I feel like we could just talk for like four more

Dan: hours.

We definitely could.

Dave: But, uh, yeah, why don’t you tell people where they can find you? I’ll put all the links in the show notes for anybody who wants to, to listen to Focus Photographers or find Dan, but just, uh, say them out loud for anybody who doesn’t want to write them down.

Dan: Okay. So my website is Daniel moyer coaching.com.

That’s, um, where I work specifically with individuals who are trying to figure out that parenting parent photographer relationship, um, how to enjoy their life without sacrificing their business and their lives and their relationships. That’s Daniel Moyer coaching. My photography business is Daniel moyer photography.com.

Um, pretty easy. My socials are, um, Instagram is where I’m pretty active at, at Daniel Moyer coaching at Daniel Moyer Photography. And my photography podcast is The Focused Photographer’s Podcast, available where all podcasts are listened to. Amazing.

Dave: Alright, so last question. Yep. What is, what is one lesson that you want to leave the people listening with?

What is, what is something that’s on your mind lately that you feel like people need to hear? I have a story.

Dan: It’s a short story. Oh, it’s a parable, like parable, um, as, as a chronic overthinker and somebody who really likes to, uh, theorize about how to get things done and come up with a plan and all that stuff.

I think sometimes we can overtheorize and I reminded of this story about a pottery professor who basically came into his pottery class and was like, listen, I’m going to grade half of you on making the perfect teapot. Half of you, all you need to do is make one perfect teapot this semester. Do you know this story?

Have you heard this? Um, then there’s like another side of the class who says, I just want you to make the most teapots you can possibly make this year. All you have to do is just make teapots. And his method was pretty simple. At the end of the semester, he came in and basically graded the, um, individuals who had made the most teapots on the pounds.

50 pounds was an A, 40 pounds was a B, and so on. What’s interesting though is the individuals who tried to make the most teapots ended up having a sort of more perfect teapot because they learned from their mistakes along the way. They, they tried and failed and tried and failed and they just kept getting feedback and making these adjustments and, and finding ways that the lid fit perfectly versus the individuals who were trying to make this perfect teapot theorized about what the perfect teapot was and, and they, They spent so much time like sort of designing it that they didn’t get enough feedback in the process.

And uh, they just did not enjoy that process and learn from it. So whether it’s anything you do, like it’s so easy to get caught up in the thinking about, well, I need to have all 10 steps laid out and I’m going to do this. Then I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this. Sometimes it’s just a matter of like, Taking a step and seeing what the next step is revealed.

And if you can’t figure out what the next step is, at least you’re still not at zero.

Dave: That’s a perfect, that’s a perfect parable. God, I got to Dan. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today, man. I definitely will have, we’ll have you back on at some point in time for sure. Cause I feel like we barely scratched the surface and things that apparently, you know, we’re just twins who live in different cities.

Seriously.

Dan: Yeah, man. Thank you so much for having me. This is an honor to be here.