Do you know how to attract your dream clients? In today’s third and final installment in a series on growing your business, my guest Ben Lau and I dive into what it takes to attract the right clients. Ben manages three separate wedding photographing brands on top of his over twenty years in sales and marketing, so he has some incredible advice to share with both new and seasoned wedding photographers.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES:
Ben’s journey in wedding photography (3:27)
The beginning of Ben’s three businesses (9:58)
Getting started on marketing and growing your business (12:51)
Showing up as yourself to serve your clients (17:07)
Shooting for yourself in a service industry (26:07)
Be hungry in the beginning (31:16)
What to focus on to continue to grow (42:14)
Stay connected with Ben (48:54)
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
CONNECT WITH BEN LAU
Website: https://benlau.com/
Course: https://benlau.com/education
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gogettingcreative/
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/282452156870143
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Dan Moyer
Hey photographer friends. I’m Daniel Moyer and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the focused photographers podcast. This podcast is structured around the idea that we learn best by taking a deep dive into a topic from a variety of perspectives. So in between solo episodes where I get to share my thoughts and things, you’ll see various series of episodes released by topic. This episode you’re listening to now is the last in a series of three episodes on growth. So if you haven’t after this episode, go back and listen to episode 40 with Nathan hole rates on how defining personal values will lead to business growth, and then episode 41 With joy Michelle on how to grow your photography business. So before we dive into this episode, let me tell you about my resource which is the focus five newsletter. It is a business newsletter but newsletter is not the greatest I’m still working I’m still workshopping terms for it idea letter sounds a little bit lame, but it’s more than just a newsletter. So every Thursday morning, I dropped some lessons that I’ve learned over the past decade as a full time wedding photographer, along with some tips and tricks and just downright sensible business advice for you to implement right now in your wedding season. Major shout out to Jamie who said the biggest takeaway from the newsletter and the podcast is all the advice on how to be more efficient in our work. She says it’s okay to let go of control. It’s okay to not be in control of the little details, especially when you found you can trust somebody to outsource. As a recovering people pleaser. She says I appreciate the reminders and the insight that the newsletter gives me on how to do these things for myself. Thank you so much, Jamie for sharing that that really warms my heart that you get to share that with me. So let’s dive into this episode. My guest today has photographed weddings in and around New York City and New Jersey for over a decade was started out as a husband and wife team has now evolved into three separate wedding photography brands, one for my guests, one for his wife, and then one for associates. And this episode, we dive into what it takes to grow your photography business. And it’s not what you think then shares a whole bunch that he’s learned from over 20 years in sales and marketing. And this is coming from a guy who grew three photography brands, they went from zero to 43 weddings. In six months when his wife broke off and started doing her thing. They consistently book over 100 weddings a year without any ad spend. And it is a pretty spectacular episode that I’m really excited to share with you. So if you’re ready, please enjoy my conversation with Ben Lau.
Dan Moyer
Ben, my man, here we are, I propose this to you a couple, maybe a month or so ago. And we finally got it very quickly on the books. And I’m happy that you accepted my invitation like literally a week ago to make this happen. So thank you for being here and sharing your knowledge with us. I’m happy to be here. You’re somebody who has always been on the periphery of of like the so I’m not like hyper connected in the speakeasy world. Although Matt Gruber is definitely helping me with that. And Colin and Joe, shout out to those guys. But you’ve always been somebody who’s like name I just kept seeing pop up and you’ve been around for a long time. And you always have like really sort of thoughtful takes on on post whenever I see you post in and comment on post in speakeasy. And yeah, I don’t know, you’re just awesome. And so I’m excited to learn a little bit more about you in sort of a formal way. So what’s a little bit of your story and sort of how you got to where you are today as the master of three businesses swimming in money, like just crush.
Ben Lau
I’m not sure if I would put it that way. But yeah, I mean, I’m just the work instead of just like everyone else. So I’m a wedding photographer along with my wife. We are we are a husband. Well for up until COVID We were a husband and wife team we shot together. But then we had to our businesses had to split up during COVID Just just to accommodate all the reschedules and whatnot. But wow, my photography journey started in 2008. My wife got me a camera as a wedding gift. So basically like here’s a camera. We have a life to build and here’s a camera, get some work. And I started shooting and who knew I was handy with the camera right? So I started putting some photos up on on social and I guess my friends and family noticed inquiry started coming in, I guess actually how I got my first wedding a friend of mine who who’s getting married the week of her wedding. A wedding photographer, baled. Just goes oh man, took all the had the final balance and everything and just ghosted Pete. And she was like Ben, I’m so sorry. You’re not invited to the wedding. But I guess you are now. Can you? Can you come to my wedding and bring your camera? Help me out, help a sister out. And you know, I was like, Listen, I don’t even know what to charge you because I’m not a professional photographer, right? Just make sure I get fed cover my gas. What will will will Good, we’ll consider this event. So that’s what I did. So that was in 2010. Oh my gosh, my very first dive into professional photography, if you want to call it professional,
Dan Moyer
how did that go? Just like? So you’ve got I mean, at that point you’ve got you’ve got two years of like messing around with the camera a little bit, but no formal like, okay, boom, go photograph and eat our wedding. How did that go?
Ben Lau
Oh, I was about to shoot my pants. There’s an actual photo of me my wife. She’s an actual photo of you pooping your pants. Well, no, she has a picture of me at that wedding. I was in a squat position. Like just like trying to get a get a get get my shot. And yeah, I was just shitting my pants. So let me tell you what happened. It was a nightmare. It was it was snowing that day. The bride was like two three hours late. It was inside a barn and the barn was like all lacquered up was like nice and shiny. Right so lovely. Wood color and that’s nice and shiny now so you tried to bounce the flash? Not all that color is coming off that wall too. And that was the only way I knew how to use my flash back then.
Dan Moyer
So you got a nice orangey brown on everybody. Yes, I
Ben Lau
had not discovered wrong yet. Right so like so the color that I got on camera was what I got. I got a lot of nice black and white photos. But to add insult to injury, I scratched my my shooting I while I was shooting I was so nervous. I scratched my my shooting I so like your eyeball like your eyeball right? What? Yeah, it was dry it you know what it was? I think it was dry. It was a winter wedding. Right. So it was dry in there because they have the heat blasted right. So yeah, it’s dry in there. Right. So I guess my eyes got really dry and I was rubbing it and I scratched my cornea. So like so now I’m shooting blind, right? I so I’m I’m relying on my my AF system to lock focus. Yeah, and the thing is the audio. I had also turned the audio off, right. You know, that’s AF beep like beat. Yep. Yeah, I didn’t hear that either. So I think I must have taken maybe 2000 frames that that night. And I think how many were up 200 of them were? Yeah. My wife my thankfully my wife was there. She didn’t know what she was doing either. Neither
Dan Moyer
was the couple happy afterwards at least so yeah,
Ben Lau
I mean, you had a lot of grit. There’s a lot of magic you can do. You had some brain, you know? Oh, yeah. It’s black and white. It that blurry that you know that blurry looks coming back now. I
Dan Moyer
hear so yeah, the blurry direct flashes.
Ben Lau
I was ahead of the times. So. So anyway, I mean, I delivered a nice gallery I thought, you know, like a decent gallery for for someone who paid nothing for their wedding. Thanks. Yeah. Right. So I mean,
Dan Moyer
so All right. So you go from having a camera in 2008, to shooting your first wedding with a lot of blurry pictures in 2010. And then 2022, you’ve got your business and associate business, your wife’s business and your associate business and your wife’s business were pretty recent, right? Like, there’s a pretty
Ben Lau
recently associate business came in 2013 Oh, okay. So, when we started banlaw photography, we were also starting a family around that same time. You know, my kids 12. Right. So you’re starting a family around the same time. So, obviously, you know, she, people were giving me dirty looks and stuff, having my wife come out and like, pregnant. So I’m kidding. She, she, she took it a little easier after you. No, you know, I think by the second trimester, she was going easy. So yeah, but but in any case, I was prepared for this, right. So I had folks help me out while she was out on maternity leave. So she was out on maternity leave for me, I don’t know, maybe two years or something like that. When she came back to work, I had all this extra talent who’s helped me out over the years. And they enjoyed this work. They had, they had a talent for it. But they had zero interest in running a business, they had a nine to five that they were already doing. They’re just helping me out on the weekends, right. But they’re like, you know, I still enjoy doing this. But we have zero interest in editing, we have zero interest in running a business. So I was like, Listen, I got some extra work. You guys want to do this? Let’s let’s do it. And that was 2013 when we made it official,
Dan Moyer
that’s wild. So those two, those 2013 and then your wife’s you split up, you said after kind of COVID that you split the business up after COVID. Right? That’s wild. So what I’m sort of what I’m interested in is that there’s three different I feel like there’s three different things in there, right? Like you’ve got your personal business, which is sort of branding in one way because you know yourself you know what you can sort of sell and double down on then you’ve got to sell other people and you’ve got to create a whether it’s a strength or not, I feel like you know, you have to say like well, you know, there’s these people you can choose from all of them in SF and then there’s also a difference in marketing. Now. You know where your wife is starting out versus back in the day. Like one of the things I always talk about is how when I first started out it was handing business cards out right 2010 I’m going out I’m given the first first booking I ever got was was giving a business card to this couple who’s in front of us in line to check out at the pizza place that my wife and I used to go to right and just I was hyper aware of when people had rings on and all that stuff. Uh huh. And I guess I’m just wondering like there’s a difference In marketing, your, you know, starting your business, your wife’s business now and marketing. Now, there’s a difference in marketing your associate business and your business. So how did that work with with all of us? How did you approach each of those businesses in growing them and building them?
Ben Lau
And who’s to say that you can’t go out and hand out business cards now at the person and
Dan Moyer
isn’t the first step to get an Instagram account now, but you know what, but
Ben Lau
it’s still it’s, I would still applaud that person who’s going out because the thing is, it’s still it’s still outreach, you know, what I mean? Relationships, where a lot of people struggle is that they, they put up a storefront, basically, their Instagram account, right? And they just hoping that the traffic comes in, like, doesn’t work like that, right? So there’s so much talent out there. And it’s just, there’s so much content out there. You can’t just expect to put up with photos, hey, I got pretty photos, and I’m open for business. Check me out. I’m awesome. That’s not that’s not gonna work, you know, actually handing out God going out there the equivalent of going out there handing out your business cards. That’s I think that’s the part that’s missing, with a lot of folks with their marketing, you know, it’s very passive. I feel like,
Dan Moyer
is there a difference now in you know, because your wife’s business started 2021 or so. Right? Somewhere in that area? Yep. And, and, you know, and one of the videos that you have in your Facebook group, you’re talking about how you how she, like crushed it, like she booked a ton of weddings with like, zero ad spend, and all this stuff. It was there a difference between building and starting up your, you know, wife’s business and helping with that versus, you know, when you first started out?
Ben Lau
Well, the first couple of weddings that she got really came from the existing network. Yeah. Or existing referral network that we’ve built over the last, you know, 12 years, right. Yeah. Because we know, I mean, so she did come in with a slight event. And actually, it’s a sizable advantage that you know, people in, in, in, in the industry, yeah, and you you kind of have a referral pool, because the thing is, you know, as a husband or wife, team, you know, our our clients become our friends. They had both of us on their social so they’re following us on social right. Yeah. When we made the announcement Hey, Kara is just starting off on her own. You know, let’s give her some love. past clients, family, friends, other vendors, venues, pushed it, you know, they see all this stuff. And like, Yeah, let’s go. Let’s go help carousel you know, so that’s, that’s where her first three clients came from. Right. But then after that, she started doing all the foundational stuff, like their SEO and their social media and stuff, like, you know, stuff that you’re supposed to do, right? Yep. And then she started attracting her dream clients outside of her existing referral pool. I’m not sure if that makes any sense. So like, all clients are new. They’re not like coming from like, an existing referral pool.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. Is that so? Right? So you’ve got this, like, referral pool. That’s, that’s what I believe. And that’s how I built my business. Like, I hustled really hard for those first couple years, I took a lot of weddings, I worked probably underneath my market value. And I have this massive referral pool that is still reaping dividends years and years later. So I guess that’s what I’m wondering now is like, you know, you, you have so many so much time that you’ve worked through this stuff, and also something that you teach photographers. So what’s like as tarps are just starting out? Right? What are some of the things that they can do to start growing? Right? Because, you know, you said like, some of the basic stuff is SEO and your social media and all that. But then where do you go from there? Is it a matter of just getting out there hitting the streets? Is it networking? Is it is it what I don’t know?
Ben Lau
Well, networking, I think people have the wrong idea with networking, where they’re like, Hey, my name is so and so. And this is what I do. Send me some referrals. That’s not how it works. You know, and I guess that’s what I that’s what I teach in my program. Like, if you want people to shout your name from the rooftops, you got to do more than just introduce yourself, because you and 100 other people are trying to do the same thing, trying to get referrals from these venues, for instance, right? You’re going everyone ever, you and everyone, you and everyone else, sending them cookies every year, you know, that’s That in itself. It’s nice, but it’s not enough. You have to figure out how you’re going to put your name on top of that pile. And you have to be very intentional with that. Let me tell you something, Daniel, you know, showing up, I would say is probably 80% of it, right? Like some people don’t even show up. Right. Right. But, but it’s an it’s showing up and doing the right things. Nobody will just show up and think that’s it right? I tell them to show up and they show up and like, well, I don’t have any results yet. Right? Well, you have to show up and to do some work. You know, you have to really think that you have to schmooze or anything like that, but you have to be intentional, like how can you get your name on template pal? How can you get these people to remember you? Because that’s really just the bait. That’s the basis of referrals. Right? Like, right, when someone needs your services or something like that. How do people remember you first? Right. So that’s that’s been, I guess, the crux of our marketing for the last 13 years, like how do we get our name to the top of that pile? How do we, how do we make ourselves memorable for those folks? How do you do that? Oh,
Dan Moyer
how do you specifically do that? You don’t have to drop it all. Yeah, Because I guess there’s some things that strengths that you have, but there’s probably some principles underneath there that that people are not doing leftovers or not doing right. Like you’re saying show up, right. And I think a lot of people will say, you know, actually had a really great conversation with joy. Michelle, also online, she’s known as joy. Michelle, their name is Joy, Aleman really, really fantastic photographer turned YouTuber and creator. And one of the things that she says, like, you know, content marketing is, is showing up and a lot of us, we end to sooner we stop too soon. And we’ll, you know, say, oh, you know, my blog posts aren’t getting seen, or my YouTube videos aren’t getting seen. And we just stop too soon. Is that what you’re talking about? Just continuing to show up? In what way?
Ben Lau
What Okay, showing showing up and serving? That’s, that’s, I think that’s, that’s probably even more important, right? So when you introduce yourself, hey, I’m so and so. And this is what I do get somebody some referrals. It’s like, when you show when you go into that relationship, it’s like, what can you do for me, right? But I think, if you want really want to turn this on its head and make it more effective for you. It’s like, alright, this is what I do. What can I do to serve you? What can I do to make an impact in your life and make your life easier? Make your business thrive? You know, what can I offer you? And I think that is so much more effective. From you know, from a referral marketing standpoint. Yeah, so it’s very others focused, correct, instead of focus, because like, you put all that good energy out there, it’s gonna come back to you 1000 fold. It sounds so like, new agey, like, self help, like,
Dan Moyer
it works. It works.
Ben Lau
I’m telling you, it works, you know, like, just go out and serve people. Because I do feel like it’s very focused on your own business. You know, when these owner operators go out and try to network themselves, for their businesses. It’s like, I’m trying to, you know, doing it. Yeah. The end goal? Yes, it’s to help grow your business. Right. But I think that sometimes that becomes too large, to be too large of a part of that conversation. And that mindset, I think, if they go out there with a mindset of, alright, how can I serve as many people as possible? How can I help all these people as much as possible? I think that would make people’s referral marketing job a lot easier.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. So let’s define serve a little bit because that a lot of people might hear them talking roster of people really well. And right, like, I show up, I give good photos, right? Like, I’ve seen that, that response plenty of times in, in Facebook groups, or wherever we’re like, oh, you know, you create this really amazing client experience, you have to serve people, it’s like, you know, on a decline experience, my photos are the gift, right? Like, my photos are tacular. That’s what, that’s how I serve people by giving them amazing photos. So there’s a disconnect, what does service mean?
Ben Lau
Well, for every client, it’s gonna be a little different for everyone’s target market, or their dream client, it’s gonna be a little bit different, right? And for some folks, they might want like a white glove service or something like that, maybe that’s something that you deliver, right? It really just comes down to your target client, you know, and what’s important to them. I’m so sorry, I’m being vague here. Like, that’s the thing. It’s like, the thing is, like, every, every, every class can be a little bit different. Right? So I guess the other part of it is figuring out figuring out who your best equipped to serve. Right, right. And then serve that.
Dan Moyer
So do you is this just like a, you know, a questionnaire that you’re saying, like, you’re asking these, like pointed questions to know, or is it
Ben Lau
notice it then. So once upon a time, once upon a time, I used to chase clients, and however they wanted me to shoot, I would shoot. And then what happened was, I would have 20 versions of myself on any given weekend, right? So I wouldn’t know exactly who I was supposed to be. How am I supposed to shoot? The end result of that? Was that the clients were happy because they got what they wanted. Right? Right. But you’re not happy? I’m not happy. Right? The money is good. Right? But I think I think I’ve, I’ve come across your name in this conversation before where it’s not about the money, right? It has to come. You know, it comes down to it comes down to how happy you are, it comes down to a lot of different things, depending on whatever your goals are, right? But it’s not always about the money, right? And that’s the realization that I came to in 2000. I want to say 17. So seven years in, yeah. I was burning out. Right. So right around then was our 10 year wedding anniversary. And we found this wonderful photographer down in Mexico. And the reason why we went all out for this 10 year wedding anniversary photos, because when we got married back in 2008, when I got my camera, right, our wedding photos were terrible. Big time it’s kind of searches right for going cheap on photography, and also just right for like, finding a photographer who had a kiosk outside. You didn’t know any better. We didn’t know any better. I was like, it’s just photos, right? You just Yes upon right. But my the biggest pain point that I had back then was like, you know, people taking the money and like, running away, right? But I was like, This guy’s at that kiosk. I see him every Sunday. Like he’s not going anywhere. I can find him right. If he doesn’t deliver the photos. I can find him right. Right. Anyway, come to find out. I mean, the photos were not that great. And so Oops, I was like, you know, maybe 10 years for our 10 year wedding anniversary, we’re gonna make this right we’re gonna do this right so awesome, you’re gonna get redo these photos, right? And this guy was booked way he’s I have no availability, I was like, listen to it like you are the only person that we want in the whole universe to photograph us. So wherever you are in the universe, we will come to you. Wow, okay, if you’re shooting another wedding, in some locations, somewhere around the world, we will come to you, we’ll cover the airfare, whatever, we just want you to photograph us wherever that may be. Mind you, we even asked him how much this cost. We’re like, we just want you we just want you to photograph us we love you so much. Wow. Okay. And the reason why we loved him so much was because his work really spoke to us because it was different, right? It was not just that it was creative, because everyone throws that word around a lot. Like it’s very creative, right? But it’s more like, he was a weirdo like us. He colored outside the lines, right? So it’s not so much as creative just for creators think it’s just his work spoke to us, right. So. So at the end of that session, I asked them, I was like, you know, do you get do you get clients like us, you know, as part of your, your regular work? And he told me, he told us, again, we get folks like you all the time, you know, I was like, Well, how do you why do you do that? Well, he’s like, Well, I, I just do it. I just I show what I want to shoot. And if I need these people to do weird stuff, they just do it. Yeah. Right. And basically, what he was doing was like, like an almost casting, type of marketing, or shooting rather. Are you familiar with that term? No. During the term, do you eat sushi? Yep. Right. Do you have you ever dined at normal classic style? Nope. So basically, what OMA classic style is, the chef will create something for you, based on the ingredients that are freshest for the day, though, that chef will, there’s no menu, it’s whatever’s coming in to the kitchen that day. And they’re just gonna create something for you, and you’re gonna like it. Right? They’re gonna use all the experience all their knowledge, and they’re just going to create something for you. Right? You’re gonna trust that they’re going to do something great. Trust is the key word there. Correct. So I was like, well, that’s when I had the epiphany, right? I was like, for seven years at that point seven, eight years at that point, right. We were creating for the clients. And it’s not necessarily a wrong thing. We’re still in the service industry at the end, of course, right? Yeah. But we are creating for the clients at the expense of our own, I guess authenticity, what were, you know, they weren’t really using me to my fullest abilities or to my talents, right? They were really weren’t using my, our, our our talents, right? Yeah. So 2018, we rebranded? We changed everything up, like, listen, now we’re shooting instead of shooting for the clients that we’re shooting for ourselves. Yeah. And our hope is that it resonates with you. If it doesn’t, that’s totally fine. And we’ll we’ll connect with some folks who might be better suited for you. But, you know, when, when you bring us on board, we were going to create on our terms, you know, and if you’re on board, you’re gonna be on board. 1,000%. Yeah, and we’re gonna get creative freedom, everyone’s going to win in that situation. Yeah, I mean, and a lot of wonderful things happen. When you when you shoot under your tears, you don’t let you’re still serving the clients, because, you know, now they’re on board with whatever you’re serving, right? Yeah, they’re gonna be thrilled. But not only that, because you are now a more, I guess, a perfect fit. For them, the commitment level is a lot higher, the trust is a lot higher. And because of that, you can also charge a lot more to Yep. Okay. So, since 2018, we’ve, we kind of caught our second wind in our business, you know, from a creative standpoint, from a financial side, from a financial standpoint, you know, and the client experience standpoint as well. You know, every everyone wins in that scenario.
Dan Moyer
What’s the quote, I can’t remember, I just looked tried to look it up. Maybe it’s Socrates, I don’t know, know thyself, that’s what I feel like. We’re like, we’re, we’re skirting around this idea of in the beginning, like, I’m the same way. And I don’t know if I’ve have the same exact end up conclusion. But it’s similar, right? Like, in the beginning, it’s just I’m just working. I’m taking every client I possibly can. It’s just just I’m hungry, right? You’re just trying to get as many you’re trying to get work you’re trying to get you’re trying to grow in all different ways, trying to grow to target trying to grow as a business person trying to get systems down all that stuff. And then at some point, you’re like, holy crap, I have missed my friend’s birthday. I’ve missed this picnic. I’ve missed like my family, I miss date nights, right? And you start to like, say, Well, you know, this person wasn’t a good fit and that person wasn’t a good fit. And I think if you’re reflective in some way you look back and say, Okay, well these people I really jive with for this reason for that reason, I think there’s this you know, moment that sounds like you had well, you did have an I had it similar as well, where I said, like, these are the clients I worked really well with the ones that for me felt like the line was blurred between what the traditional photographer client relationship looked like. It was not transactional is relational, and on my sort of rebrand, I had a website that tweaked and had like little little bits of this message about sort of being friends and getting to know people on a deep level. But on my rebrand, I dive down deep, hard, and it’s like the third, you know, halfway down the page. It’s, there’s a scrolling carousel of me. And over 100 couples from the last 10 years that I’ve photographed on their wedding day. And I’ve really doubled down on this idea of like, let’s, what if what if it could be your best friend showing up on your wedding day, while their best friend would probably, you know, want to be at the wedding. The next best thing is somebody who is part of that with you, who’s just as excited to be there as you are. And it sounds like, there’s this number, but this way that is fulfilling to me, when I show up on a wedding day and know a couple so well, that I can create photographs that I know, in my heart that will be meaningful, rather than me showing up on the wedding day. And just like doing my thing running through some posing flows, and and then you end up afterwards and and it’s like, I don’t want to really know if I’ve captured anything of meeting, right. But that’s, that’s where I came from as a photographer who has to show up and want to like the people I’m photographing. Right, you know, and so this this big thing that happened with you in 2018, where you rebranded and said, We’re gonna photograph for us, what does that look like on a practical level? Did you? Are you still white glove? You know, getting to know people and spending time with them? How does How do you act that out that like shooting for you on sort of a, a 500 foot view level?
Ben Lau
Well, I guess it all starts with the brand messaging, right? The marketing messaging, right, making sure that they’re prepared that this is what they’re signing up for. Yep. Right. So during the console, I prepare them with my schpeel. Right, like, Listen, this is what you can expect, when when we’re when we’re working. And then, and I, all of our associate brands are my wife’s brand and my brand, the engagement sessions are always included. I know a lot of times my colleagues will add it on as a, you know, additional service for an additional fee. But for us, it’s just part of our process, to get to know the client a little bit better and figure out what they like what they don’t like. But not only that, it allows him to get acclimated to our working style as well. Most importantly, and it’s usually during the sessions, where I take the opportunity to really see how far they’re willing to let me go to push. Right? And then that way, I know what the boundaries are on the wedding day. Right? But honestly, I mean, ever since the rebrand they know what they’re signing up for. So in fact, I’ve actually had clients like, Hey, Ben, you know, when we signed up, I felt like you were pulling your punches during the engagement. So can you go a little crazier? Oh. So I was like, Yeah, man. So that’s fine. Yeah. So I mean, I love hearing that like Ben, you know, you’re, you know, I want you to go crazier. That’s, that’s like the best.
Dan Moyer
That’s how you know, you’ve got you’ve got a good fit right on the other side of the camera. Is that the way same way it is, with all of your brands? Like did you sort of double down on this, we’re shooting for us, which ultimately, you know, puts your clients in a great space. But is that the message across all the brands?
Ben Lau
Well, it’s more so like, this is the work that we’re producing. Yep. Hopefully it resonates with you. But we don’t want to like, we don’t want to want you to feel like you’re in a relationship that you didn’t want to be in, you know what I mean? So like, we so we’re putting all our cards on the table, when we’re with our brand messaging, and during the consoles and stuff like that, hey, listen, this is this is what we do. If you like it, great. If you don’t, I’m not going to try to hard sell you to get you to get across the finish line. Like I said earlier, like I said earlier, at the end of the day, we’re still a business, we’re in the service industry, we want to make sure that our clients have a great experience, right. From a product standpoint, I think a lot of the selling is done beforehand. Yes, a lot of the selling is done beforehand. So they kind of know what they’re getting themselves into. So it attracts certain type of clients. So like the best analogy that I’ve ever the best analogy that I can think of right? Let’s go it’s ridiculous time I use this analogy. It’s a lot like dating. Yeah, it’s a lot like dating, right? And sometimes you have to kiss a lot of frogs until you until you figure out exactly what you don’t want, right? And so you know exactly what you want, right?
Dan Moyer
It’s funny because I use a dating analogy as well. Very, very similar that like, like, one of my rules kind of on the first meeting is Is this like a date, where I would never talk about how awesome another date was or how amazing another date was? I’m just primarily interested in in what makes these people special, which is something to you know about my brand again, that’s like hyper focus on specific people. But yeah, I love good data. I love a good analogy.
Ben Lau
So if, if we’re gonna go on this analogy, right, like, your dating profile would be your website for your for your, for your photography, business, you know, so the messages that you’re putting out there, like, I like hiking and you know, I like hiking, you know, skydiving and you know swimming with this Dogs and stuff, you’re going to attract a certain type of person who likes that kind of stuff. Yep. You know, someone who wants to just stay home and read a book, they probably don’t want to date you.
Dan Moyer
Right? Right? Well, this comes back to that knowing yourself thing, because not a lot of people are gonna say, oh, I want a photographer who’s gonna be like my best friend and ask all these like, mushy questions and stuff. And there’s a whole Reddit theme thread of that several people shared with me about a lot of couples saying, Oh, we don’t want this photographer to ask us all these mushy questions. But that’s exactly what my couples are wanting and desiring as somebody who will know them, and know their families and be able to create photographs of those people and know the relationships and be able to speak to that.
Ben Lau
Yeah. What are some things that I’ve read recently, I forgot who said it, and maybe we can find out who said it later. But like, if you do in your marketing, right, you should repel as much as you’re attracting? Yeah, it should be 5050. You should not be your product is not for everyone. You know, and the more exclusive it is not so much from a price standpoint, right? But the more exclusive it is, as far as you know, who you’re best equipped to serve. And the more people you can turn away the I guess, the stronger your marketing messaging is, and and the people that come through that filter, right? They they make a pass that filter, they’re going to be, you know, great clients for you.
Dan Moyer
Do you think that that that very big filter, or that that not so great filter in the beginning of your career, did help you get to where you’re at now, because you do have that massive pool referrals and all that stuff? Like, do you think the question I’m trying to ask is, do you think that it’s important for photographers who are just starting out to just be hungry? And just to get as much work as possible?
Ben Lau
Yes, I agree with you. 100%. It’s just like dating, right? How do you know what you want? Right? Yeah, you have to go out and try a lot of different things, you know, play the field, right? And figure out what you like, what you’re good. You don’t know what you’re good at. You know, you don’t know who you’re best equipped to serve. Unless you until you actually do it. You know what I mean? And then, once you figure that part out, the important thing is for you to like, figure out, you know, as you as you go through your process, like figure out what you’re good at. Yeah, just like even raising kids. You know, like, you don’t know what you’re good at. Yeah, you got to try a lot of different things until something sticks, you know, and then that’s what we do.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. In the words of Ted last, oh, through Walt Whitman, be curious. Not.
Ben Lau
Yeah. So I took every I mean, I took, I took all the clients that came in, I had I had two toddlers in the house, I had bills. Yep, you know, so like, I wasn’t, I wasn’t gonna say no to work. So I took everything that came in through the door. So I don’t I don’t think I have the luxury of being able to choose. And I think some I think some folks might try to go niche a little too early. Yeah. Right. If you’re hungry, you should just take the work. And shoot, you know, because the thing is, for every, for every work that you take, for every piece of work that you take, it sounds terrible, right. But that exposure is good as money. It is and the thing is, we don’t want to we don’t want to pay for exposure. Right? But listen, you’re still getting paid for it. You know what I mean? What are you gonna do? You know, I rather get 80% or 90% of what I wanted. Yep. Then 100% of nothing. Yeah. You know, and I think sometimes folks, their egos get in the way and, and they see all these other successful, more established photographers, you know, being an exclusive with this, and they’re niching down, or, you know, I only take 10 weddings a year, because this other person takes 10 weddings a year. Totally different. Well, you didn’t want you didn’t get to that point yet, you know, you just started shooting like a year ago. So you’re not in a position to make those demands. You know, you got to you got to you got to work to that point.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, you know, that what you just said, reminded me of a study, you’re talking about how you want, you know, 870 or 80% of what you want versus 100% of nothing. And there was this. There was this study that was done, where they asked a bunch of lawyers, they they sort of contacted a bunch of these lawyers and said, hey, you know, we have this case for you, we’d really love for you to be able to do it, bla bla bla, you know, but unfortunately, this is this is the rate that we have this array we can pay and it was 25 or 30%, below what the the known rate was for that lawyer and resounding nose across the board from most of these lawyers, then not so long later, they followed up and said, Hey, we have this work that we’d really like you to do. It’s for a nonprofit. So it’s pro bono. It’s free. And it was almost resounding yeses. And they’re talking about how there’s this interesting thing that happened where they their ego got in the way of them accepting a lower rate versus and seeing more in the charity side of things which don’t get me wrong like I have. I’ve photographed weddings for damn near nothing. In the early days when I was trying to do more destination weddings. So let’s say I said, Hey, pay for my pay for my travel and stuff because I wanted to show a wedding from Cancun or whatever. But I thought it was interesting that a lot of these lawyers said no to 70 or 80% of their pay for this job or something that could have been meaningful, but yet they took no pay to do the same amount of work.
Ben Lau
Why did they why did they agree to do it? Don’t
Dan Moyer
maybe the internal feelings of getting something some joy or something out of giving back or, or doing work for this nonprofit for free or something? I should look into that city. And there’s a long time ago since I read that, but yeah, it was one of the afterwards they I think they interviewed each of the lawyers. And and just said that they, you know, there was this block sort of in between what they allowed themselves to do, because they felt that they were less than by accepting this lower rate, even though the job was very similar. We think thoughts on that
Ben Lau
might have been a presentation problem for the person. You know,
Dan Moyer
I don’t know, what’s the look, I want to look into that because I think it’s fascinating. It was like, they equated both of the it was like the same kind of job, same everything, same nonprofit, you know, one nonprofit said, Oh, I have 70% of what your rate is. The other one said, Will you do this for free? And they said no to 70% of the rate and all the lawyer said yes. It
Ben Lau
depends on if you I mean, if you have if you have the ability to to give right. Thank you. Yep. But if but if someone comes up to me and says, Hey, listen, this is my budget. Can you work with it? You know, I mean, generally, there’s no negotiations there. Right? Because, you know, those short term gains are long term disaster waiting to happen. So I try to I try to keep I try to keep everything consistent. Yeah. When people tell me that they’re hungry. And they’ve got no bookings on their calendar. That’s that’s the part that kind of bugs me a little bit, right. Like, they won’t take work for less because they think that they’re worth this much. Right. Right. But I’m like, You got nothing on the calendar.
Dan Moyer
I think this is what I’m saying is that in the beginning, it’s it’s just about getting going and, and filling up your calendar.
Ben Lau
Let me let me let me tell you another story. Right. So I guess this back probably maybe in 2009 ish, right? I was shooting families, a friend of mine. We were she was starting around the same time as well. She got an inquiry for a birthday party for like 250 bucks to go out to Long Island, right? So she’s like, Listen, if I were to take this, I go negative. Just to drive out there to Long Island, photographed this pizza party, right? I was like, Well, I’m not doing anything. I’ll take it. Right. So 250 bucks. I went out there. Shoot this birthday party. It was it was at a Pizza, pizza parlor. 40 people. I think just gas and tolls and parking alone. I think the moment I arrived, I think I was already 100 100 bucks. already. Right? Yeah. And then, you know, back then I was I was very generous with my offerings, too. And I think I gave them like, the whole gallery plus prints, right? Prints I got at Costco but that’s that’s a box of prints. The the box was maybe about five bucks and the prints 2030 bucks. Yeah, I shipped it. I included shipping too. Right. So like, that’s 15 bucks. I think. I think at the end of the day, I think I made maybe 50 bucks. I think maybe right, but let me tell you something. I shot the hell out of that. That that birthday party. Yep. And by that summer, by that summer, all the family members who were there at that birthday party, I shot all their families. I made three grand that summer. Yep, yes. Oh, no. Just shooting families just chasing these kids around. That was in 2010. Right. I am still getting referrals from that group and that group of friends. Yeah, multiple six figures in bookings Navy photographed maybe two or three destination weddings out of that group. Yep. You know, off of the $250 birthday party for a one year old. You never know. You know. So that’s what I’m saying. Like, don’t just look at what’s in front of you. You know what I mean? And I don’t want people to misconstrue this as saying like, well, you know, I don’t want to work for exposure. It’s, what would you’ve got nothing. Right. Right. And I didn’t go negative for this. I was putting getting my name out there. And they were paying me, you know, so there was I didn’t go negative doing this. And if you’re just shooting for free and just for exposure, yeah. Then maybe you’re losing money. Right. But right. But basically, I was being paid so that these people can market for me, right? I mean, right. That’s the way that I was looking at it.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, this service thing. Like that just goes back to the service thing that you’re talking about where it’s like, you you go there and you shoot the crap out of this this family session in a pizza parlor, right? It’s like, you know, how easy would it be to just like show up and coast for that right like yeah, you know, just call it take some pictures, deliver the gallery, whatever was like, no, no, I’m showing up. I’m gonna hustle. I’m gonna crush this and it ends up working out right like that. I’m sure won’t you just I mentioned it, but I’m sure other than that piece of party there are, there are couples who are worth 1000s and 1000s of dollars to you because of the referrals. And because of how you treated them, like there’s October 29 2011 was this crazy snowstorm that hit Staten Island. And it was this crazy, like first time in 90 years that it snowed in, in Staten Island, and I had a wedding up there so traveled up there night before from Philly stayed in there. And the day of it was insane, like trees had fallen down, power was out everywhere. It was like in most parts of New Jersey, the power was out for, you know, two weeks. And the venue Long story short, the venue had lost power we found out in the middle of the church ceremony venue had lost power. And they said that they were going to do a reception the next day from 12 to four for the couple, I pulled some strings and figure some stuff out. And one of the sisters of the bride paid for me to stay over. And I’m there’s no way I could have gotten home that night anyway, but ended up being this like 50 hour long wedding, and not an Indian wedding either just like a regular wedding one day, and I ended up staying over and because of you know, just the, the sort of positive reassurance that you know, I’m going to be there, I’m going to photograph it doesn’t matter. Like I’m not just I’m not just gonna like bail and figure this out. I’m there for you guys, we’re going to work through it. And I have gotten nine weddings from that one wedding. Because that couple was just, you know, friends of theirs were at the wedding, she you know, was well connected with, you know, in her job, and she’s just my name all the time, share my name on all these boards and all that stuff. And it’s just you never know.
Ben Lau
Well, that’s because you came from Are you first you came from like a client first mindset. What can I do to serve you? What can I do to make your life a little easier? A little better? A little bit more convenient? And they remember that? Yeah. You know, like, the the sad thing I see is like, you know, a lot of times folks walk into the room like they’re the most important person in the room. Like I don’t like this person. I’m not doing it my way. And it’s not just it’s not about you. It’s a team effort here. Yeah, it’s not just that it’s the bride and groom or the bride or it’s the couple’s thing, right? It’s not about you. What can you do to serve them? Yeah, that’s, that’s why you’re not getting referrals.
Dan Moyer
Okay, so you’re in the beginning, you’re hungry and all that stuff? What are you know, other, you know, photographers are listening to this. You’re, they’re thinking of, you know, how they can double down and sort of be themselves what’s making them happy. But what’s some of the other, you know, low hanging fruit, some of the other things that, you know, photographers are just getting, just getting into this that they can focus on and hone in on to continue to grow?
Ben Lau
Well, I would say, the easiest thing that you can do is show up and do the work. My wife and I actually had this conversation not too long ago, like, if you’re just starting out, right, like showing up and doing the work that puts you up ahead of like, 80% of the pack and ready because there are so many folks out there, there’s so talented. They’re priced reasonably. And they seem likeable enough, right? Yep. But they’re just not doing the work. You know, they’re not, they’re not doing the stuff that they’re supposed to be doing, like blogging, social media, and they’re just wasting time. They’re just wasting their time playing video games hanging out on social, you know, whatever it is, right? They’re just not drinking reals, would whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like, they’re doing stuff that is fun. They’re not doing the stuff that’s important. And that’s the most important thing showing up and doing the work. That’s a huge, huge part of it.
Dan Moyer
And so it’s showing up consistently, time and time again, over and over again for days, weeks, months, years. Right,
Ben Lau
right? And not just and not stopping to, you know, I need a break now. I mean, dude, you’ve only been working for 30 minutes. On the coffee, you know, it’s accountability, you know, being accountable to your, to yourself, to your family, to your clients, you know, showing up and doing the work. And let’s, let’s so basic. I know it sounds so basic, but I wish I had something more. You know, more amazing.
Dan Moyer
No, you know, but this is the stuff that, that we always want this like magic pill, we always want this, like big this one hack to get us through, right? I think that the the the hack that people are looking for is in the work that they are avoiding. Right? It’s just showing up and doing the work. And let’s let’s like as we sort of like wrap up here, sort of ties, the threads of our conversation together. Like What Did what how do you what is the prioritizing of work for you? That’s like, Alright, I’m going to show up. And these are the things I have to do every day to make sure that I’m continuing to grow. And I’m putting you on the spot here. I know.
Ben Lau
So what does that what does that consist of? Right? Well, it sounds so basic, right? But making sure that clients are taken care of. That’s the first thing, right? So making sure the emails are responded to quickly, making sure that they feel like they’re well taken care of.
Dan Moyer
Right. So that means probably being proactive rather than reactive, I would say right, being proactive
Ben Lau
about it. Making sure that you’re taking care of them in a way that they want to be taken care of. Because the stuff that some folks are doing, it might not be important to those clients. You know, yeah, like, you might be sending them cookies, but maybe they don’t want cookies, they just want you to, like, edit the photos and get the photos back to the
Ben Lau
listeners, this PDF brochure is great, but where are my photos? So you got to take care of them in the way that they want to be taken care of. So
Ben Lau
respond to this stuff, you know, take care of them proactively, from a marketing perspective, you know, I want to try to stay present in our lives in a meaningful way. You know, so if they should, like, when I take my social media breaks, you know, I want to make sure that I’m contributing, you know, on their feeds in a positive way. So they remember me, are you friends with, you’re more tactful? This is more tactics more than once? Okay. Yeah, it’s more tactics stuff. But do I friend them?
Dan Moyer
Yeah. Yeah. And then you like, you know, happy birthday and all that stuff. Right?
Ben Lau
Yeah. Good. That’s like your minimum, right. But I don’t think anyone’s doing that.
Dan Moyer
Not a lot of people aren’t doing that, I believe the same thing.
Ben Lau
It’s the easiest thing that you can do you know what I mean?
Dan Moyer
Well, and that’s why I think it’s important to define some of the things these things like, you know, what is work and, and the stuff we were talking about before that, and I’ve said this to you, before, that you there’s so much stuff that you and I take for granted, because we’ve been doing it for so long, and because it’s ingrained in us already, as people who like naturally want to give back and natural and serve. But it is a matter of really breaking this stuff down. And, you know, getting like a perfect example I can think of of this is, you know, rather than putting this like blanket story up on your Instagram of here’s the editing queue of couples, I have to edit that’s like 15 couples long, sending a email or giving a phone call and saying, hey, you know, I’m working on your wedding, this is the date I’m gonna have it by or I’m a little bit backed up. I’m working on it. But I just, I feel like these like being pro. Like, there’s several times in over the course of you know, the last few years with babies and kids being born and just stuff coming up with COVID. And everything, where I got behind on delivering weddings, and I saw it coming. And I reached out and said, Hey, I’m behind. I really wanted to get these done to you by this date. And I gave them a I said, Hey, you know, I appreciate your patience and all that stuff. And as I told him, I preached patient proof a token of my appreciation, I want to give you guys a 16 by 24 canvas of your favorite photograph from your wedding collection when you get it. And if some from like CG pro prints or whatever, but rather than being so delayed and getting behind and then a couple emailing me and getting pissed because I missed the date. It was proactive. And I just I think that there’s this
Ben Lau
is a very important. Yes.
Dan Moyer
Would you call it soft touch?
Ben Lau
I think it’s I like that. Yeah. Off touches. Like, you know, like, you didn’t have to do it. And it’s it’s very subtle. It’s not like it’s a generous gesture. But it’s not overly generous. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not like in your face. You know, hey, listen, I really appreciate you working with me on this. You know, it’s a small token of my appreciation. Here’s, and you know what, I do the same thing too. Yep. As an owner operator, especially during these past couple years, it’s very easy to play victim, you know, like, you Yes, you had a rough two, three years at it, but so did a lot of other folks too, you know. So instead of complaining about it, let’s, let’s figure out how we can kind of make some lemonade out of these lemons. You know what I mean? How can we turn this around? And really, how can instead of complaining Why don’t we use that energy to fix things? Or find a solution if you don’t know how to fix it? Find out how to fix it.
Dan Moyer
You know, wise words, man.
Ben Lau
I said nothing.
Dan Moyer
No, you don’t give yourself enough credit. You rushed it. Alright, so as we sort of wrap up here, you know, I know you’ve got a really awesome offering and a webinar and some training and stuff that I want you to share because it’s looking pretty sweet. So share a little about that and where people can find you you personally, your brands and then also your coaching and mentoring stuff.
Ben Lau
Folks who want to follow us on photography works at Ben Lau photo paper studios, the associate brand Pearl paper, Pearl keeper paper. That was actually the type of paper that we have our wedding invitation. Oh, name from cute Yeah, isn’t it Kieran? Yes. It was a pain in the ass to put together just like two months, glue sticks and like stencils and whatnot. Anyway, yeah, that and then on my wife’s name, my wife’s brand name is a Charisse hE y Charisse K r is cool. And that’s where you can find our photography work and then where you can find my coaching stuff. You can find me on Instagram at go Kate go getting creative. Last week, I offered some coaching and report to general public and actually this was something that that’s been in the works for about two years now. During COVID I didn’t really You know, none of us were really shooting very much, right. Yeah. And one of my past clients, you know, she’s a hatless, and then she didn’t, but actually, she’s been bugging me for years. Right? Just like, teach me everything that, you know, I was like, I got nothing to teach you, girl like I got, I don’t know what I’m doing half the time. She’s like, No, no, no, I swear, like you, you know, just coach me. I’ll pay you whatever. I was like, Listen, I’m sorry, I’m not gonna take your money. But anyway, during during the pandemic, I was like, Well, I kind of need the money now. So she’s like, so she got her STEMI check. And she, she, she invested in that. And that’s when I first started coaching. And, you know, and I didn’t think that I really had much to offer. But she had been shooting for, I guess, maybe four or five years up to that point. And I was like, well, we’ll keep our fingers crossed. See what happens, right? Within three months, she started seeing results crushed it. She started getting two and three. And she started getting two to three inquiries a week. She she was featured in a magazine, she started, she was added to preferred vendor list. She was questioned it out, you know? And so I was like, oh, maybe what I’m teaching does work. So I started taking on a couple more, a couple more students. And they started crushing it too. And I was like, alright, well, maybe I’m onto something here. So that’s why I started putting I put together the course, very near and dear to me. So So where can they find this course? Well, they can find this at Ben lau.com/education. As of right now, right now I have two things. I have a one hour training on just like a really quick, really quick, like ways how people can get their referral marketing machine going. Yeah, I talked about like, there’s like nine ways you can get more referrals, right. And in this free training, I talked about three of them. And then I have the whole enchilada, the whole course. And they can get that if they click on the links,
Dan Moyer
and you have a Facebook group tube, right?
Ben Lau
Yes, it’s kick ass Sales and Marketing for the go getting creative.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, it’s funny, your story is the same as mine. I was like, you know, trying to decide if I should do the coaching thing and put this podcast together and stuff. And it was, you know, friends of mine, Colin Coleman and Jodie Antonio were like, yeah, man, you do things pretty different. And you should put it out there and whether or not they agree with me half the time is another thing like, because you know, this is exactly what this conversation is, is know yourself and know what, you know what? You’re going to be able to speak to your how you can be able to speak to your clients and how you’re gonna attract the right ones. And it’s a matter of just being yourself and putting that out there.
Ben Lau
You got to you got to figure out what your Purple Cow is. And show that to the world that makes you different cow was that Seth Godin. It’s your was it is very cool. Yeah, like, yeah, my plates are full of reading, but podcasts might be something I’ll have down the pike, but that’s fine. Yeah, yeah. We’ll figure it out. We’ll figure something out. I haven’t I certainly have the face for a podcast. So
Dan Moyer
and you also have the voice for it. Night voice Yeah, man, everybody, go check out Ben’s stuff. This was awesome. I am super thankful that you also came on it’s such you know, short notice. But you’ve been somebody who I’ve had my eye on for a while to have on here. And I’m very thankful that you got to be here and
Ben Lau
be here. Yeah, we got to do this again. I wouldn’t have only scratched the surface. I don’t. I hope I hope people got value out of this.
Dan Moyer
I believe they did. Oh, so now we just scratched the surface. I see how it is. Part Two. Awesome, Ben. It’s a super great wonderful.
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