An incredible amount of challenge exists for photographers and business owners when it comes to managing their mental health. This episode is the third in a series on photographers and mental health, where I am opening up the conversation with fellow creatives regarding the correlation between our mental health and our businesses. My guest today is Matt Gruber, a photographer and friend who shares the importance of having a community of peers around you and boundaries that allow you to work as your best self.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES:
The importance of discussing burnout and mental health for photographers (3:03)
Balancing relationships, family life, and mental health as an entrepreneur (5:28)
Managing a public-facing career and finding a place to vent (13:00)
The repercussions of COVID for wedding photographers (19:33)
Breaking free from the loneliness and other challenges of entrepreneurship (25:42)
Building healthy community (32:40)
Putting boundaries in place to show up as your best self (39:05)
Mentioned in this Episode
CONNECT WITH MATT GRUBER
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Dan Moyer
Hello dear friends, I’m Dan Moyer and welcome to the focused photographers podcast where photographers gather. This is the third episode in a series on photographers and mental health. Burnout is more of a conversation now than it ever has been before in the 13 plus years that I’ve been a full time wedding photographer burnout, and all that stuff is different for each of us. But you might hear some things in these conversations that you relate to, we’re tackling some real stuff. So you might hear some things that somebody might call trigger warnings or whatever. So just be mindful of that. These podcast episodes are the story of people dealing with stuff in their lives, they’re dealing dealing with life. As always, though I approach these conversations with some light hearted curiosity, some spontaneity and some levity. My greatest hope is that each of these conversations will give you some hope, some ability to lift you up and encourage you a little bit and make you feel not as alone because being a photographer can be isolating and lonely at times. These episodes though, are not a substitute for therapy, there is no substitute for talking with somebody whose only job it is is to sit there with an open heart and an open mind and help get you through whatever you’re going through. Do you know how I knew I needed help? It’s when I just couldn’t shake my negative thoughts. I’m somebody who, you know, is pretty positive and I can look on the bright side of things and they usually can intellectualize and, and read books and all that kind of stuff. And I just couldn’t do that I just couldn’t show up the way I usually could. And that’s how I knew I needed help. therapy has done wonders for me over the past two years. And it might do you some good too, if you need some help. Or if you just want to talk to somebody call or text 988 If you’re in the United States. Okay, let’s get to the show. today. My guest today is a wedding photographer from Philadelphia. I’m very happy to call him a good friend who I got to know over the pandemic on Facebook Messenger and we talked nearly every day me him in this little dad group of photographers that we had, he is a master editor and he’s somebody I’m taking notes from on how to refine my post production and speed it up. It is no surprise that this episode feels a little bit like two friends catching up having a bit of events session about entrepreneur life, Dad typography thing if that’s a word parenting, setting, boundaries, editing, and so, so much more. I hope you enjoy this one with a very good friend of mine, Matt Gruber.
Dan Moyer
Matthew Gruber, you are the second person to be on this podcast for the second time as I feel I feel like a celebrity. You should I mean, you are a celebrity. How many followers you have on Instagram. Now good tactically,
Matt Gruber
this is the third time that I’m on. But you didn’t release that episode
Dan Moyer
of the neuro? It would actually be the fourth time because there was a four dad typographers episode. Yes. Wow. I forgot about that one. Yeah, royalties. Yeah, there was yes. As soon as I start getting paid. This is a labor of love. Man. Were you talking about? Maybe one day I’ll start doing? I’ll start doing ads and things. But But yeah, so obviously, this, this topic that we’re hopping into, I put up this poll on Instagram. And it was hey, you know, what’s, what are the next topics that I should do on the on the podcast? And I think there was some things about like, seeing differently as a photographer, there was another one about marketing or something, then there was this one about mental health. And it shot to the top of the charts very quickly. And you were one of the first people who said, hey, I’ll if you when you need guests like I’ll do it. So I’m wondering why, why you sort of jumped at the chance to get in this.
Matt Gruber
Oh, that’s a long winded answer or question.
Dan Moyer
I got time. You know,
Matt Gruber
it sounds weird. Like, I’ve been doing this for a long time. And I’ve seen so many people come and go that like, are awesome photographers and awesome people that they just like, they get burnt out for a billion different reasons. You know, and just like from a mental health perspective, like, I that’s important to me, I’ve had mental health issues, like, my whole life, you know, like, I think it’s something that we, that we all struggle with as it now it’s like, much more in the forefront, like where it’s acceptable to talk about it. Whereas like, yeah, you know, when I was like, in high school, or like college, like it was much more, you kept that stuff to yourself. And it just it’s a it’s a peculiar industry to be in. And yeah, I think a lot of photographers just like struggle with issues like that. Yeah, things that we deal with that we can’t, we can’t really like talk about, you know,
Dan Moyer
yeah, I mean, it’s definitely much more acceptable now to sort of talk about it. I mean, you know, what’s the number one thing that I feel like I’ve seen more and more, even in our, in our sort of local Philly group that you see popping up is burnout and frustration and how do you figure out how to edit quicker so you spend more time with family and all that kind of stuff? But yeah, like that. generation before us, like I know, I have friends who therapy was used as a weapon from like their parents to talk like to their to their kids like, well, if you guys don’t shape up, we’re going to go therapy, right? Like I’m gonna put you in therapy, I’m gonna put you in this or that, you know now it’s like I’m an advocate for seeing a therapist, like go talk to someone whose job it is to just make you to listen to you and all that stuff. Which reminds me I want to go down a whole bunch of rabbit holes with Ted last closing things. But yeah, man, I mean, tell me more about like, sort of where you’re at with this. And and, you know, you’re you’ve been at it for a while. So I know that you’ve gone through some ups and downs and that kind of stuff of just being an entrepreneur and photographer and balancing the family life and, and all that stuff.
Matt Gruber
Yeah. I mean, I’ve been shooting weddings for I guess, 1415 years now. Beat me, Danny. Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, but the first couple years count, like when you’re like shooting, like one or two weddings and like, the work is truly truly awful. I don’t know. I don’t believe
Matt Gruber
Yeah, I cringe when people repost stuff from like, any, you know, like a decade ago, anyway. Yeah, so I’ve been doing it a while. And, you know, it’s not always easy, like people, you know, we, we put out this perception that it’s easy, and it’s in some aspects, like the photography itself is pretty easy. You can pick that up, especially nowadays, like these younger photographers, like I don’t know, if they just did like graduate third grade, and they’re taking better pictures than I ever could. Yeah, I feel that. Yeah, but when you factor in, like, most people that get into photography, and they have a nice camera and somebody asked them to take pictures for free or for like 50 bucks or whatever, and like suddenly you have a business when that’s like, you weren’t anticipating that most photographers don’t start off thinking, Okay, I’m going to be a photographer and I have a business I’m gonna do that it just kind of like snowballs from taking pictures of friends. Like some idiot actually wants to pay you money for it. And then yeah, it’s snowballs from there, and you’re like, full fledge into this career where you’re like getting 1000s and 1000s of dollars every week that most
Dan Moyer
of us are wholly unprepared to, like, handle money, the business part of it, all of it, right?
Matt Gruber
Oh, yeah. Oh, wait, I have to pay taxes. You know, like, it’s, it’s a lot. It’s a lot. Yeah, I’m just I’m looking at your face, and I’m getting distracted.
Dan Moyer
So it’s like, it’s pretty late for me for to record a podcast like it’s nine o’clock now. But this is the way it is with like kids and babies and like getting kids like, you know, my kids are not even asleep, yet. They’re all rolling around. But like are, they really don’t know, when you get two dads together. Like, this is the time when you can record a podcast, but so I don’t know, over the over your journey. Like, as a photographer, what were like, you’re talking about how you get into it, and you’re like, Wow, this is awesome. And there’s this like, big high. And I think you a lot of us, like get real into it real fast, right? Because there’s all the things to learn about, there’s the gear and, and like the toning and the software, and then the getting the clients and the business part and the marketing and all that kind of stuff. And what I see it as maybe you have a different perspective is like, you get real into it, because you want to make it your thing. And, and like all your focus is there. And I remember like the first couple years, like, maybe it was like 2011 I had a wedding every single weekend from the beginning of April. To the end of July, no breaks every single weekend straight through. And it’s like you think about like, but that like and in the middle of that you’re like kind of like, this is awesome. Like, I got a wedding this weekend, you’re telling all your people and all sudden it’s like, Okay, the first thing to go is your relationships. And then after that it’s your like, you don’t see your friends anymore. You don’t go to birthday parties, you don’t do parties, you don’t do weekend stuff. After that. It’s first things relationships, then after that, it’s sort of like your physical health. You don’t have enough time, you’re staying up super late, all that stuff. And then after that, it’s it’s your mental health was like Where the hell did I like I’m not doing all the basic things that I’m supposed to do to keep my health. Right. Did you hit spots like that?
Matt Gruber
Absolutely. Because I was thinking as you were bringing that up for me, like my kind of journey, but just like things that kind of like made me reconsider? Do I even like want to do this? Like, I feel like we all have thoughts like that at some point. You know, whether it’s a crazy client or like you had just a really bad session, like whatever it is that you’re just like, oh my god, I can’t do this anymore. It was probably honestly it was probably 10 years ago when most of my friends were getting married. It’s like when you’re hit when you hit that like 2930 Year 30 year age range and everybody’s getting engaged now. I read I was shooting weddings and my wife ended up having to like attend half of these weddings like solo by herself, because I already had a wedding booked somewhere. Like that was, yeah, that that was a struggle with and you know, kind of, we had a talk and it was like no more weddings for friends because some of them I was shooting the wedding but she was attending the wedding as a guest and like, I couldn’t hang out with her and she wanted to like, dance with me. And I’m like, Sorry, I gotta take pictures. So that was like the first domino of like, okay, I need to have boundaries, like no more weddings, for friends. I’m either like a guest. We’re gonna be Yeah, if we’re going to be invited. I will be a guest. I cannot shoot your wedding. You know, God,
Dan Moyer
I did so many friends weddings, which started erupt. There’s like, just this past weekend, my wife and I went to Georgia. And it was the wedding of my first intern. She worked with me from like, 2012 interns. I did have an intern. Fancy. Yeah, yeah, I was super fancy. It was like maybe 2012 or 2013. And she worked with me up till like, maybe like 2015 or something like that. And she was like a just a high schooler like, sophomore. And then she went off and went to SCAD. And now she lives in Georgia. And she’s got married this past weekend. And she had asked me like, because she had said, way back when oh my gosh, you’re gonna shoot my wedding one day when I get married. And we still kept in touch. And she has her own photography, business, and all that now and was so amazing. And it was so difficult when she asked me like, do you want to photograph my wedding? And I was like, because I felt like this. Like I needed to because I, you know, so are promised. But, but I like after some serious consideration. I was like, I would love to be guest. But it’s hard to see that because like, it’s like your friends. Right? Your friends want you to photograph their wedding. It’s hard. Yeah, it is. It is as you were like, I don’t know, going through all this like nonsense. It’s not like one day, it all of a sudden is just like better rights. Like, okay, I’m gonna put this one one boundary in place. Like you’re saying, Alright, no more friends weddings. Like, there’s there’s always something that’s like popping up where? I don’t know, your your business is getting in the way of this or that. I don’t know what you I mean? Well, yeah. And
Matt Gruber
then like, yeah, and then fast forward a couple years, we have kids. And then like, every weekend, I’m gone. And you know, they start T ball or do whatever, you know, go to like family parties that I can attend. And they’re like, Oh, why? You know, why isn’t daddy there? And it’s like, Daddy’s got to work, which, you know, it’s true. But like, they don’t understand why everybody else was off on the weekend. That is like the only person in the world in their eyes that’s working on the weekend. Yeah, so that’s like been the latest thing. That kind of you find hiccups or things that like, aren’t ideal, and you figure out ways to like, make them the best that you can, you’re never gonna have the perfect situation with everything. You’re never gonna have the perfect schedule, the perfect work life balance, but you strive for that, and you try to find ways to like maximize whatever is the most important to you. So, yeah, yes, what I’m currently working on
Dan Moyer
in our like, in our like, little group speakeasy, it just seems like there’s constantly this. You know, it, which is a place that like people are just like venting, why do you think it is that like, so many photographers just like, keep popping up? And like, venting and talking about, oh, this venue, you know, makes this really hard? Or you have to, you can’t walk in through the front doors? Or, you know, couples who are like, No, you can’t use the bathroom? Like, like, it just seems like in no other job. Do you have to be super happy or stuff all the time? Yeah, I mean, well,
Matt Gruber
yeah, I do. I think a large part of that is we have a very public facing career where like, we can’t just go on our personal Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and like rant about our date, or a work because our clients are gonna say, Oh, wait, that was my wedding. He hates us.
Dan Moyer
There was another wedding with a dog with a tuxedo on and cat walking down the aisle. Right? Yeah.
Matt Gruber
So honestly, I think a lot of people in quote unquote, like normal jobs, whatever that means. They can talk about they can vent to their friends about their job, you know, and it’s not going to have any repercussions because it’s so very nonspecific. Whereas like, for us, if we said something like, clearly, you know, in our clients saw it, they would clearly see what it is. Hence, why people in Facebook groups or whatever, it’s like, their peers are venting. What seems like all the time probably, maybe more than other professions just because it’s really the only place like, they feel safe to do that. Sometimes people I do have to say sometimes people like need to, like, turn it down a little bit.
Dan Moyer
Maybe pull back just a tiny bit. Pull. Pull back a little bit. Yeah, I mean, it just seems like it’s the only profession where, where, like, and we’ve had so many conversations about this during COVID Where it’s like you can’t call off, right? It’s like it’s like, Oh, I get it. You know, my wife gets sick days. You know, I mean, like, we don’t Get that right.
Matt Gruber
We don’t have the opportunity to, like, mail it in, you know? Right. And there’s obviously other jobs out there that that are much more important than what we do you know that they can’t met with me either. Right? Well, I hope you’re searching isn’t like mailing. Oh, good. Like, I gave it my best shot. Sorry. Yeah, it just, it’s stuff like that. I think, you know, the fact that like you can, you don’t have sick days, you can’t really have like a down day you have to put on your game face, even if you’re like, not feeling your best physically, mentally, emotionally, whatever, like, you know, just people that like, break up with, you know, or are going through a divorce, and they need to go to a wedding. And like, yeah, you love. Oh, I felt so bad because I had no idea but actually had my wedding. The second photographer had just gone through a divorce. And during our first dance, which was actually our song, walk, Come away with me by Norah Jones. That was actually her wedding song. So like when that started playing, like, her emotions were just like, all over the place. And she had to leave. And I had no idea and I don’t care, like it was fine. But like, I like that stuff sucks. When you’re going through that, like, and you have to put on the happy face and pretend like yay, love. Awesome. Yeah. But
Dan Moyer
can we talk about for a second about how like the fact that like, there’s no place other than like, sort of these events sessions to to get at like to get out of this right? Like nobody else unless your wedding photographer fully understands this, like my wife, she had worked with my friend Danielle, who was a wedding coordinator. And she worked like one time or two times, like an assistant just for fun, like whatever. Because, you know, they’re her and Danielle are friends. And she’d come home like, Oh, my God had never, like thought about how much work and how much goes into this. And I just don’t think that people get it. When you’re like, oh my gosh, I had this wedding this weekend. And it’s like so much. And afterwards, people like what sweating I love, love, like, what is wrong? Like they’re super sweet. It’s like, Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s great, like party. But you’re like, I guess like, I don’t want this to turn into a vent session, but it sort of is and I’m okay with that. But like, I just think it like it all funnels into this like thing where you’re just like shoving more stuff in there. Like we just started listening it off. Right? Like the fact that like you’re it’s
Matt Gruber
it’s a lot to handle. Yeah, it is absolutely a lot to handle. And it’s like, like I said earlier, there’s a billion reasons why people get burnt out. And especially ever since COVID. Like, you just see photographers like dropping left and right. And they’re like, I don’t even know what I want to do. I just I’d rather go work at like Target instead of doing this anymore. I feel bad about that. Yeah, it all funnels in and just keeps pouring on and piling
Dan Moyer
on top. Nobody can see you doing that there’s no video.
Matt Gruber
I just thought about that. I had the greatest like hand gestures and everything.
Dan Moyer
It was really good. Yeah, my friend, Taylor, who’s actually going to be a guest on this. I know she’s gonna be before this or after this. But you know, I don’t even know. Like, I definitely think that there’s a whole other layer that like women have to go through as well. Female second shooters who like are female photographers who like have to get potentially hit on or like if they’re all that time of the month and things like it’s like, you have to go to the bathroom, you need to go to the bathroom. But like, like, there’s just all these like horror stories. And again, it’s like this time when it’s all then the other part is is that so you get through the wedding and stuff. And then you have to relive the whole thing. Going through it still care about it, still edit it still go through all this stuff. And it’s just feels like such a like, how do you have this mixed feelings about like, how are you supposed to feel about this? Because you’re saying you’re like, it’s supposed to be this like one perfect day? And if you don’t make it this like one perfect day, then you ruined this one perfect day, you know?
Matt Gruber
Yeah, the expectations are wild. I think that’s that’s what gets me a lot is like, trying to the pressure, probably most self directed pressure to like, live up to the expectations that people have for like, what their photos should be. It’s just, it’s a lot. It’s a lot to handle. And not not fun all the time. But I think that actually like you can use it to your benefit to like, put you on top of your game and pull out the best of yourself and give everything that you have like, you can turn a lot of the negatives or things like that and turn it into a strength. Yeah, so
Dan Moyer
like, All right, so let’s talk about this big elephant in the room. Because after COVID happened, right? Like you and I obviously gotten to a group around then like that’s when we first started talking. And initially it was around this idea of like, wow, if somebody one of us gets like COVID like we’ll step in for each other, but like what they say in trauma is that it’s not often it’s not like the big ugly event that usually gets people it’s like the aftermath. Can you talk about like sort of your cuz you were one of the photographers who like was so consistent with masking was so consistent with like, making sure that you stayed safe because you had so much riding on, like the next wedding after that, right. And I just know, we’ve had so many conversations about how, how that, you know, affected you and like the past couple years? Oh, because I don’t think that it’s like, and that’s obviously what this like the the missing episode that Matt is talking about is like this one that me and Tony and him had a discussion about like, sort of the post COVID stuff that was happening. And it just sort of fell through the cracks and never added any more. But I’m curious sort of like, Thank you appreciate that. I’m curious to like, get into that, because it’s still very much there. And like the repercussions are still there. And how we do business still feels like it’s sort of getting back to normal, but it’s, it’s still there.
Matt Gruber
For me personally, it was probably just from like, in this aspect of my life was longest, two or three years of my life habit. I don’t even know what year it is anymore. How long if COVID has been here for two years, four years? Yeah, whatever. But yeah, like it was really hard because I was more concerned about like, what happens if I get COVID and I miss work? More than like, my own health. Like, I didn’t care if I got it in like was hospitalized? Yeah, I was more concerned about like, Oh, what am I gonna do? I’m gonna have to, like call these people and tell them I can’t do it the right way. And like, you know, what’s the point? Let
Dan Moyer
me put a pin on that for one second. Because how effed up is that, that like, right? It’s like, okay, I need to put this couples like perfect day because I don’t want to be the photographer that messes it up. And that will be like the you even have to you just said I don’t care if I get hospitalized. What am I going to do about this couple’s wedding? Which one is like a beautiful testament testament testimony testament to like, who you are as photographer and and like the, the, I don’t know, dedication you have to your craft, and your couples and all that kind of stuff. But also, like, just how effed up is it that like that is the mindset, and probably the mindset for so many people that like, I don’t care if I get a house price, as long as my unit couples, you know, whatever, how many other people were like, like, I’m out for like a week. See? Coworkers later suckers.
Matt Gruber
That was like, that was the the number one thing that like I talked to people about, over that whole time period, like more than anything else, like there for that one reason alone. Like I wish I had a different job. Yeah, the only reason that was the only reason like because I just, I wanted to be able to just like call out. So I wanted to call out. Yeah, not even not even that I need a break. I just don’t want to have to worry about the stress of like, am I going to have COVID this weekend and not shoot this wedding like, and maybe I was just psychotic and cared about, like, to a degree that was like, you know, unsustainable, because honestly, like most of the people that I was working with are seeing weddings, like I was probably like the last person to still be wearing a mask. Like clearly they moved on and that’s cool. I eventually did too. But like, you know, maybe I was just psychotic. I don’t know. I don’t know,
Dan Moyer
I don’t think you’re psychotic. But I think I think the point that you need to get back around to is like, how that like that affected so many of your day to days, like at home because it’s not like you’re at a wedding. And it’s like okay, well, you know, what am I going to do? I could bring it home to my kids. I could you know, like,
Matt Gruber
wait a way to you know, make the the fun level.
Dan Moyer
That dude like yeah, obviously you’re talking about mental health is is inventing about all this stuff. This that’s what this episode titles is gonna be Darvas and mental health venting with Matt Gruber. Right? Like, there you go. But like, alright, so. So you said you sort of like moved on a little bit after COVID? Like, are you still wearing masks at weddings now?
Matt Gruber
I am not. But I still I like, every time. I have kids in kindergarten and preschool and every time they get sick, which is like once a week. I’m just like, Oh no, it’s happening. It’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen. So it’s, that part of me is like, permanently emotionally scarred. But yeah, I mean, what are you gonna do?
Dan Moyer
I had to miss one wedding. I remember that. And it was a thankfully a couple of super sweet but it was like the hardest wedding to miss because it was in Brooklyn. Obviously in Philly, we’re in Philly. And like, I had to find somebody to go up there and all that stuff and and like it was I was so angry because when Saturday arrived like I was totally fine. I felt fine. But like my, my test was still like, I like put the drops on there and it was like, like, glowing immediately. Like, alright, obviously I still have this thing. But it was so annoying that I just like it could have been any other thing like the flu or whatever. It’s like alright, you know, I feel good on Tuesday. Wednesday feel a little bit crappy. Thursday. I’m getting better Friday. I’m okay. Like I’ve shot the wedding with like, get recovering from a stomach bug before it’s like, you know, the adrenaline just like picks up But
Matt Gruber
in the past we like, be throwing up like in between formalities. Nobody would think anything of it. Yeah, you know, oh, I’m okay. I have like a fever of 104. But like, I’m here, I’m doing it this family pictures. Yeah, I’m here. I remember I remember to get, I remember doing consults with couples, like, you know, and they’re deciding whether or not they want to hire me. And I’m telling you that telling them, don’t worry, if I have the flu, I will be there, you know. And now in hindsight, I’m just like, Oh, my God. Like, we really, we did that, I guess, you know? Wow,
Dan Moyer
there’s, here’s the big overall question. I’m just like, all the venting stuff is like, if you’re a photographer who like doesn’t have the support network of a bunch of other photographers of having like, maybe the wherewithal to put some boundaries in place, and to see past like that money is like, the ultimate thing that you’re going for, or whatever it is, like, how do you? How do you start to like, like, all this stuff we’re talking about, is just going to start to weigh really, really heavy on you. Right? So like, how do you get break free from the photographer itis or like the just the, the loneliness and sadness and depression that comes along with like, all of this? There’s no right answer. It’s a big question.
Matt Gruber
That’s a big question. I have a lot of questions are a lot of answers to all of your questions in there. But I think having a support system is important, even if people like you said, not everybody understands what you’re going through. And that’s fine. Like I, I talked to my wife about things with, you know, with my work, and she has no idea what I’m talking about. Yeah. But like it, it’s good. Just talking to somebody about it, you know, even if she doesn’t really understand or some of her suggestions back just because she doesn’t understand how the industry works. Like, some of her suggestions don’t really work. Makes sense. But like, I
Dan Moyer
thank you, that’s not helpful.
Matt Gruber
Appreciate, ya know, I appreciate them. But I’m like, I can’t really do that. Thank you. So yeah, like talking to people, I think is just super important. And to be completely honest, like, I’m glad that we’re coming into an age in an era where, like, it’s okay to not be okay. And, you know, I feel like we should really put more of ourselves out into the world, especially like we have, most of us, I would assume, are on social media and have like an online presence, not saying you have to show like your horrible days, and like, how much you might have had, like, the worst day of your life. But just this notion that like, everything that we do, and show has to be like, super happy all the time. Like, I just maybe just getting older. I’m just like, why? Like why, like, I’d rather share like a little bit more of my personality, which is not super bubbly, but I’m trying.
Dan Moyer
I’m rubbing off on you. A little bit.
Matt Gruber
Just a little bit, just a little bit. Yeah. But I, I was thinking about when you first asked that question. It might may have been on your podcast when you were interviewing Sam. He definitely said it. Maybe it was a different podcast. I don’t know. Maybe it was yours.
Dan Moyer
You listen to other podcasts other than mine.
Matt Gruber
Why contain fairness, I only listen to sports podcasts. And you, thanks. You’re welcome. Anyway, he was like, if you’re going to be a photographer, like a wedding photographer, you have to love everything about weddings, you know, like you have to like, love it. And I think that’s true with just photography in general. Like if you want to be a photographer, you have to love it. And if you don’t love it, that’s okay. But I feel like where a lot of people get stuck is they actually do love being a photographer. They love weddings, they love, you know, senior photography, whatever it is, they shoot, they love it. There’s just things that like, hold them back or get get them stuck in the mud where like, it masks their love for their job, because of whether it’s editing or pressure or work life balance, whatever it is. Does that make sense?
Dan Moyer
Let me put it this way. Like one of the things I think is that like I do, I love weddings, right? Like you you know, like,
Matt Gruber
I know, ya know,
Dan Moyer
I love weddings. I love my couples I love like blurring that line and being more than just a photographer and stuff. But the thing that the pandemic really brought out, because January 1 2020 was the 10 year anniversary of my business. So I was thinking I’m like going to come into 20 I’m going to be crushing it because 2019 was the best year I had in business ever. I’m coming into 2020 and it’s like all this stuff happens. You know I shot this wedding and I shot like a wedding in February and it snowed and then In March, I had a wedding. And it was like, like, literally like the week after that everything shut down. And I just remember, like, starting to have all these conversations with all these couples that were about, like, what do we do? Like, you know, I’m sure this will be over by the, you know, this time or, and then once it started to drag on, you know, I’m having all these conversations with these couples that are moving their weddings to 2021 I got off the hamster wheel for the first time in 10 years, the wedding photography hamster wheel. And I had realized that, you know, while I love weddings, I really needed to look at the fact that like, weddings were not my like, my identity, like the two things were so wrapped up. And I think I feel like you have a good handle on that, like, you have a good thing about like, like, no, no, like, I do weddings, I love them. I like being a wedding photographer, and like talking about it, but it’s not like your personality. And I feel like mine was so wrapped up and and also, like starting our little photographers group helped me see that like, oh, there’s all these other flavors about people who like, do things their own way, like you don’t have to love all of this part of it like I do. You don’t have to love like, or, you know, you can do all of these crazy things over here. While Yeah, the point I’m trying to make is that loving weddings is so different from like, letting it become. And loving everything about weddings is so different from letting it become like your everything and that you are a wedding photographer. And that’s what your whole identity is wrapped up in. Right? For sure.
Matt Gruber
For sure. And for me, like I I do love. I do genuinely love weddings. I love being a wedding photographer. But like when people ask me what I do, or like when I think of myself, I think I’m a photographer, you know, who happens to photograph weddings? You know, like, if I won the lottery tomorrow, whatever, like I would still be a photographer. I don’t know, but I would take pictures of but like, I would still, like that’s ingrained in me. That’s who I am. So like that’s, that keeps me going. As long as I have that pencil I need.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. Have you speaking of sort of like talking to people and all that kind of stuff? Have you ever seen anybody a therapist or like anybody in official capacity?
Matt Gruber
It’s been a long time. But yes, yeah. In the past? Okay, cool. Definitely. I’m just
Dan Moyer
curious. That’s all, I think you had said that before. But yeah, I’m a huge advocate for it. And that was like an yet again, another thing that the pandemic brought out that I was somebody who would always be able to just be like, like, I can get through this or like, I’ll talk like, the negative feeling and like a box and come back to later and it’s over. And that like, I just couldn’t get through it. So that’s why I started seeing a therapist in the, in the pandemic. So as like, you’re saying, talk to people and like, just get connections? What about like, I don’t know, is that in person? Is that like, I don’t know? Yes, it’s easy to start. You know, burnout and mental health is like, definitely a big conversation right now. But like, you know, how do you bring that up? How do you start talking about that kind of stuff?
Matt Gruber
To be completely honest, I feel like photographers are very good at
Dan Moyer
truth. And even if they’re not,
Matt Gruber
I mean, like, there’s actually a lot of photographers that like you come across, like, have no idea about all of these Facebook groups or, you know, whatever it is, whether on Reddit, that they’re in their own little bubble just like doing things. And they have no idea that like, there’s like huge communities of their peers out there that like, they can network with, they can talk to they can bounce ideas off of, you know, we talk in this chat all day, every day. And it’s it’s like 50%, ridiculousness. 20%, serious 10% business and then like, what do I have left? 10%?
Dan Moyer
I don’t know. There’d be no math.
Matt Gruber
I don’t know. You know, like, that kind of stuff helps me just because I know that I have people that know exactly what I’m going through. And we just, we talk and we shoot the shit, or we bounce ideas off of like, hey, I want to try something new. What’s my pricing? Like, how does this work? How does this make sense to you? And you guys usually tell me that I’m an idiot. Much nicer terms. But yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, it’s much better than me just trying something and then learning the hard way.
Dan Moyer
You know, I think there’s something that whenever I’ve listened to other podcasts about mental health, or the books I’ve read or whatever, I think like relationships, like the healthy relationships that you have around you, like one you have to look at, do you have those kinds of relationships? Do you just have like, the people around you that you know, you have a relationship with them that looks like how you sort of want to be but then I think that there’s also this thing about it’s called like a 4am guy or like a 3am guy where it’s like if you got like some shit, right like in your You’re in, do you have somebody that you could text or call at? 4am? Right. And I think that’s a good place to start. That’s like, well, going back to what you said before I finished that thought it’s like, like, I think it’s really good when you have a group of people who you talk with every day, like a message group, because I think it allows you like you are you love to like, just like put these like little things out there, like God, like, whatever, like this happened, or this person or did that. And I think it’s good because it gets out. Because Because he doesn’t build us,
Matt Gruber
you know, to this, but it’s not even that. For me, it’s almost like, when you’re in this business, for the most part, I’d say like, what, 95% of photographers work by themselves? Yeah. You know, yeah, unless they’re a husband and wife, team, but even then it’s like, just the two of them. You don’t have coworkers, you don’t have you know, the office water cooler, or water cooler, as you would say, water cooler. Water, water. Yeah, so like, you don’t get that daily, just human interaction of like, fellow people that you can talk to fellow humans to, like, you know, what you’re going through, or just like, whatever. I don’t know what normal people talk about it their job. But you don’t get that as a photographer. So that’s, that’s why for me, like talking to you dudes. And my, my female friends as well is awesome. Yeah.
Dan Moyer
And more helpful than any of us could have imagined, right? Yes, yeah, there’s some, there’s actually a I’m trying to think of what it’s called, this website I am blanking on and Haley is my Podcast Producer, and she is going to be listening to this adding it, editing it and she’s gonna be like, Oh, it’s this thing. But like, essentially, you, I think it actually might be free, you like sign up for it. And it’s like a working hour, where you hop on, you’re like, hey, this is what I’m working on for the next hour. These are my goals, sort of for it. And then like, you can mute yourself and like, but you can still hear if other people are talking like somebody might come on and be like, hey, blah, blah, I’m just gonna work and or you can message or whatever. And then at the end of the hour, you like, pop on and and you’re like, Yeah, I got this much done. I got this done. I didn’t get this done. And it’s just like, you can be there you can you can leave it on and, and like talk with other people. But like that’s, that’s actually a website now or a company now that you can do that. But it makes me think of back you know, my buddy Russ and this guy, Matt zoek. Not you met different met this guy, Matt. So another family photographer and my buddy Ross Hickman. You know, not that long ago, we used to just have these like Skype, have like Skype daily sessions where we’d hop on and we’d be on for like, four or five hours. Sometimes we talk and then sometimes they’re just like, floated and out of conversation. But it’s a direct result of like, I’m sitting at home all day. I’m home by myself. And I need somebody to keep me from going in.
Matt Gruber
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s probably something that like a lot of people just in general, like, relate to now with even even now, like, in 2023. Like, there’s still a lot of people that work from home. That just don’t get that. Yeah, they don’t get that daily. I know. It’s camaraderie is the right word. Yeah. It’s just that that daily human interaction that like, people kind of need to keep going. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
yeah. So all right, I want to go back to just one more thing I think maybe as we start to wrap this up, but you said sort of in the beginning, before our big vent session, which actually felt pretty good, I feel feel pretty light now is like, you know, you you know, in the early days, you had these weddings that were friends weddings, like Oh, I’m gonna put this boundary on, no more, no more of these right. And that’s sort of to keep you away from that, that black hole of, you know, whatever that like that space looks like where you don’t like your job you don’t like what you’re doing, you know, you know, shooting a wedding just feels terrible all like whatever that black hole is. And as you’ve gone along, I’m sure that you’ve picked up some other things or put some other boundaries in place to keep that that negativity at bay in your business and probably your personal life. Can you share some more of some of the things that you do to make sure that you are able to show up as your best self in your business and your home life?
Matt Gruber
Definitely yeah, it’s it’s a never ending circle of trying to find things that work for me that bring out the best version of me and just make me as happy as I can possibly be. You know, like, I I have to work you know, I can’t just sit at home and not work. But like I do enjoy working to like we’ve had this we’ve had minor arguments slash disagreements debates about like, yeah, just you shoot. Last we have to, you know, the weddings that I shoot And there’s times where I’m like, how do you only shoot this much? And you’re like, how do you shoot that much? Because I
Dan Moyer
don’t buy shoes. Right? So that was a dig.
Matt Gruber
That’s all good. But like I do enjoy to work, but it’s finding the right balance of like, hey, if I, you know, I know that I need to shoot X amount of weddings per year to pay my bills to have the lifestyle that I want, whatever that is, and just trying to find the right situation to do that. So like, I know, going forward, I would love to never have to do any double headers, you know, but it’s not like completely realistic. But yeah, stuff like that, where like, I know that if I only shoot one wedding a weekend, I am like, much more much happier, much less stressed. Just less on my plate, things like that. Or, you know, having more time off during the week, not scheduling an engagement session Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, going out shooting a wedding sad, right? You know, like, just really, for me, that’s been the biggest thing. It’s just like, working on a schedule. That works for me, and allows me to like have ample breathing room. And yeah,
Dan Moyer
so it sounds like you try to say No, a little bit more. Am I hearing that? Like yes, yeah,
Matt Gruber
definitely. It’s a struggle, but I’m working on or do we need to want to say, I, it’s not even I want to say yes to everything. I’m, I’m afraid to say no to things. But yes, I’m working on it.
Dan Moyer
Why are you afraid to say no to some things?
Matt Gruber
I think there’s probably part of me that’s like, I don’t know if I’m a people pleaser. I don’t like people being mad at me. And I feel like when I say no to people, even if it’s in the nicest terms possible, I feel like they’re gonna secretly be mad at me. That’s, that’s what it is. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
I think there’s a lot of people who feel that same exact way a people pleaser to the max I’m, I’m hyper concerned about what people think about me. And, and like, that plays into a whole sort of big roll of it. But I also realized that like, with my kiddos and stuff, like I should have hit the gas hard in 2022, I should have taken 30 Weddings made a ton of bank and then like, I just didn’t have it in me. Like I just I was so depleted from 2021 and 2020. Nope, 2020 and 2021. But I think there’s a lot of people who like, have difficulty saying no, that’s why I asked. Yeah. So where do you where do you go from here? What’s the what do you need to work on next?
Matt Gruber
I don’t know what I need to work on next. I will let you know the next time that I have like a mental breakdown. That’s
Dan Moyer
for me, honestly, that’s we’re trying to not have the mental breakdowns here. Well, no,
Matt Gruber
I don’t I don’t mean like a real mental breakdown. Sometimes it feels like that way. But I think any change that I’ve ever made in my life or business has been from, you know, a mistake that I’ve made or something that I didn’t even realize it was a mistake. And then you go through and you’re like, wow, how do I prevent that from ever happening again, because I don’t want to feel how I feel now, whether it’s from stress or self loathe of hating your work. You know, whatever that is, like, when you’re going through those things, at least for me. It allows me to find a solution. So I never have to go through that again. Like I I remember telling you probably think it was November of 2021. Or maybe it’s last year, I think it was this past November, just out of circumstance between like weather postponements. COVID reschedules, for weddings, and just like the inability to say no. And, you know, because I was afraid of people being mad at me. I had, I think 14 engagement shoots in November alone. I remember, like, plus like eight weddings, like I truly literally was shooting every day except for maybe like two days out of the entire month. I remember that. And I was like, I will never do that again. I will never do that again. And then like, because I was I was miserable. I was miserable. It was the work was fine. The people were fine, but I was just so burnt out. And I was like, I can never do that again. So like I got hyper focused on it was like I sat down one of those nights, and I blocked off so much time for this coming year or for for 2023. I was like I will never make that mistake again. But
Dan Moyer
you’re also reflective, right? Like, like you’re saying like, this is something a situation I don’t like and you’re like, Okay, I need to because some people wouldn’t think back they wouldn’t be like, Okay, this was something that I didn’t like, I’m never going to do that. Again. I think that takes an incredible amount of self aware Ernest to be like, this is a situation I don’t like putting myself in. I am putting myself in this situation, like, for sure, right?
Matt Gruber
Yeah. And I go ahead. Sorry. No,
Dan Moyer
that was it. God,
Matt Gruber
it’s your podcast. No, no,
Dan Moyer
hey, buddy, you’re my guest.
Matt Gruber
I was just gonna say like I yeah, that’s kind of what I like to do with just my business in general. You know, like, even even when it comes time, if I messed up photos, you know, like, I know that I should have used a flash or I should have like, moved people or like, whatever it is big or small, like an ECU, you forgot to take a photo of the bride and the mom, you know, whatever it is little or big things like that. Like, when you come across that and like you hate the way that you feel. And you’re like, I could never work again. Instead of maybe like, I could never work again. Maybe just make us. So you don’t do that mistake again. Right? It’s like, that’s my entire life of just trying to learn from my mistakes. So going forward, my life is a little bit easier.
Dan Moyer
Like, you’re just like, I’m not doing that again. And then you never do it again.
Matt Gruber
Most of the time, I mean, there’s still still plenty of times where I’m like, such an idiot. That could be nobody that has more more. What’s the word or phrase? I’m looking self deprecating. My question. Of course. Yeah. Then I am in my head.
Dan Moyer
All the time. I, buddy. So final final thoughts as we wrap up here. Anything, any gems you want to drop out there?
Matt Gruber
I’m definitely not tough. So that’s more of your cup of tea. You know, all of those, all those quotes? No, I think just in general, if you are feeling burnout, you know, it. It might not be the career for you. And that’s okay. You know, but like, if, if you do like it and you do love it, try to maximize the parts about it that you do love and minimize the stuff that you don’t love.
Dan Moyer
Like sounds outsourcing or saying no, or what
Matt Gruber
I mean, I think yeah, I think outsourcing is like the common answer to that. But just in general, like we, we both have mutual friends that, like me, back in November of last year are like, out driving in their car back and back and forth from the shore every single day doing shoots. Yeah. And, you know, they don’t like it. But they don’t make that change, like make that change. And maybe only do it a few days a week, and you’ll love your work more and be happier. You know?
Dan Moyer
Are you pretty honest with yourself? Is that like we’re a sort of a lot of this is coming from? rephrase that. What
Matt Gruber
do you mean by honest with myself,
Dan Moyer
right? Like, it just seems like, I think this is like you have a lot of like self talk where it’s like, oh, I don’t like this situation. I’m not doing that. Again. I don’t like that. I messed up this or forgot to this thing. Like I’m gonna burn that in my mind to like, you’re just honest with yourself and like a not like a negative way. But you’re just honest, honest with yourself to say like, I don’t like this, right? Like you. You know, you had that super long thing in November where you had all those shoots and whatever. And like that was on you. But you didn’t you didn’t. There wasn’t like a lot of negative self talk of Oh, I’m such an idiot. Why the hell do I do this? I’m so dumb. I was like, no, no, no,
Matt Gruber
I was definitely saying all those things in my head.
Dan Moyer
But you’re honest with yourself, right? You are honest with yourself?
Matt Gruber
Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I guess. I definitely knew that I was dumb for like saying yes to all of that stuff for just like, not putting my foot down. And saying like, No, I don’t have any more availability this month. I’m sorry. But you live and you learn. And what are you going to do?
Dan Moyer
I don’t know where it’s from Matt Gruber. You live and you learn what are you going to do? Except Say no more? Yes. All right, man. Thank you so much for for being vulnerable and sharing some thoughts and, and kicking us off here because it’s the wild west out there and just being able to have some people to talk to and vent a little bit and laugh about it. That’s why I keep you around.
Matt Gruber
We’re all in the same boat. My friend. Dave. Yeah.
Dan Moyer
Where can people find out a little bit more about you and your work and all that stuff? Share the links? Oh, no, no, no. I’m on baby. No, Mom, give it to me.
Matt Gruber
If you go to my Instagram, Matt Gruber photo.com That’s my
Dan Moyer
it’s 937 Things are getting wild.
Matt Gruber
It’s been a long day. My Instagram is macro ruber photo, you can find me there and then it’ll take you to my wonderfully probably
Dan Moyer
awful website continually redesigned over and over again website.
Matt Gruber
I do feel like I’m the only person in this industry that does not have like, you have podcasts and you know, other things you’re working on. And other people are like, Oh, I’m building a SEO business and other people like, Oh, I’m gonna make this product and I’m just like, I take pictures, you know,
Dan Moyer
and you crush it man. I’m telling you, I’m going to, I’m telling you if you offered an editing course, I would sign up for it like that. Just saying, and that is and that’s how the cookie crumbles. Ladies and gentlemen. All right, man, thanks for being here and thanks for all your all your thoughts. Alright buddy.
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