In our incredibly visual-oriented world, how do you cut through the noise? This episode is another installment of the Missing Ingredient series, where I’m sharing the hidden steps necessary for running a successful photography business. Today’s guest is Emily Hammel-Shaver, brand voice copywriter and owner of Lumos Communications. Emily is diving into her thoughts on defining your brand voice, speaking to your client’s needs, and why written word may be the key to reaching your ideal prospect.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES
Developing work-life balance (4:28)
Course-correcting when you’re out of balance (8:44)
Giving voice to your vision in a visual world (13:56)
Crafting your brand voice (17:03)
Making your business “you” (19:54)
Creating your website copy (24:24)
Discovering your brand messaging (30:40)
Honing your message (39:22)
Deciding on your niche (46:06)
How often to update your copy (49:49)
The dance between brand voice and design (53:24)
Connect with Emily (57:30)
CONNECT WITH EMILY
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Review the Transcript:
Dan Moyer
Hey friends, welcome to the focus photographers podcast. I’m your host, Dan Moyer. If you’re like me at one point or another, you probably made the mistake of saying, I don’t need to write anything on my website. My Photos speak for themselves. The truth is, is that for all photographers, from wedding photographers to photo journalists, the written word and photos are the perfect pairing, they go hand in hand, the two need each other. In our incredibly visual world. My guests and I both believe that it’s the written word that cuts through the noise and grabs people’s attention. Emily Hamel shaver is a designer and brand voice copywriter. She is the everything behind Loomis communication, which is her company that helps visionary brands find their brand voice, she is extremely thoughtful. She is very knowledgeable, and she’s incredibly gifted at distilling these wildly intangible ideas from diverse brands and companies into powerful sentiments that continue to help her clients get in front of their ideal prospect. This episode is part of a series on missing ingredients. There’s so much information out there about pricing and presets and sales for photographers and creative entrepreneurs. But that leaves a lot of gaps in our knowledge for running a successful business. In this episode, Emily shares her thoughts on defining your brand voice, how to speak to your clients needs, how to gather information for your copy and distill it down. And finally, where to start implementing that copy on your website. The most powerful part of this conversation for me though, comes a little more than halfway through. And that’s when she shares with me how focusing on your client and their needs. And your copy really relieves the pressure from you on having to distill you as a person down to a few random adjectives that are splattered all over your website. That idea seems to be what I see with a lot of photographers websites where they share like the things that they love and these like random adjectives. And don’t get me wrong, there’s definitely a place for that. But I love the approach that Emily has. And I think that that’s going to be a very powerful part of this episode for you to Emily is another business owner who believes in the power of referrals. She has been in business for over eight years and has built her business solely on referrals just like I have from my wedding photography business. If you want to know more about how I continue to build my photography, business by word of mouth, go to focus photographers.com/referral-building Have a little worksheet on there that talks about my approach the approach that I’ve continued to use and refine over the last 10 plus years. You can go on there, you can download it, you can start filling it out and start implementing some of it into your process and your business right away. Okay, that’s enough for me. Let’s get to the show. Now. This is me with Emily Hamill shaver.
Dan Moyer
Okay, Emily, it’s good to see you. How are you doing? It’s great to see you today. I’m doing really well. I’m so happy to be here. We were catching up pre show. And it was like we were talking about maybe pre pandemic, when we were at this little huddle for another person’s business. I think that’s the last time that we really communicated.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah. And then 10 years before that at Kutztown University. So we were doing a little better this time around, it’s probably been like four or five years.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, what’s been going on with you over the last, like, through pandemic and all that stuff? Did that have a huge effect on your business at all?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Um, yes. And no, my business definitely picked up during the pandemic, because it was a time in which people had to greet their customers and clients online, which is what I help businesses do. And then post pandemic, not that we’re really post but you know what I mean, like the past couple of years, I did notice, just with the economy, there was a little bit of a slowdown, but I’ve also changed some of my positioning during that time. So I was also sort of building up this new level of my business anyway. So it was hard to tell what’s pandemic and what’s changed that I initiated?
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I actually really can’t wait to get into that part about where you sort of like wiped your best year like website clean and just started from fresh. And I’m really excited about that. But before we get into that, I was I’ve been trying to figure out like, what, what I wanted to talk about on this episode with you. And as I was going through, I was reading all of your Instagram posts, I read all the copy on your website, I looked washed all the spotlight or visionary spotlight videos on your website, like, just to find out like what kind of questions you ask and who you are as a person. And and there’s this one theme that keeps running through all of your Instagram posts and this theme that you seem to like to talk about when you give presentations and workshops and things and that is this like self care, work life balance, and even a lot of your Instagram posts share a lot about your journey with that or things that you’re doing or how you’re feeling with your balance and you need to pull back. So can we just talk a little bit about that and your sort of approach to that and your thoughts about it?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, I love talking about that. And it’s because, you know, I want to enjoy my life. That’s kind of like my stake in the ground is if I’m here I want to have a nice time. And I you know, why have a business You know why choose what we do if it’s not going to be something that we enjoy if it’s not a healthy, fun, joyful path for us. And so, of course, entrepreneurship is rife with opportunities to learn how to, you know, be balanced, be healthy, be enjoy, do what we’re great at, like set healthy boundary, all of the things like it’s you can’t not talk about self care when you talk about entrepreneurship. And that’s why Yeah,
Dan Moyer
these like, it seems to me that in the creative space, and especially creative entrepreneurs, that it seems like me, because we, we are our work, like especially the photographer’s that I work with, we are the work that we’re producing. And so there’s a lot of thoughts about, well, I need to be working in order to make this level of money. And I also love the work. So I want to do that and you like, we just get down this path of tying all of our thoughts and feelings and worth to our work. And you’re saying like, Hey, here’s this whole other side of it. So like, it’s really tough to turn that off, and say, No, it feels more like a luxury to say like, No, I want to like go for a walk with my dog, then like, I need to edit pictures, or I need to like get this brand message out for this client. Right?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
The reframe that I have been living is my rest and my joy are my work. It’s not a luxury because I have a dog one of the reasons I got a dog, there were many reasons but one of the reasons I got a dog legitimately is because I needed to take a break in the middle of the day and take a walk, I missed having the quote unquote, commute after work of like, yeah, now here’s, here’s where we stop, and I go do something. And so, to me, it’s not a luxury to have space in my day, to be healthy to take care of my body to take care of my mind my spirit, because I can’t work. You know, I can’t work if those things aren’t in good shape. So that’s why I feel like my my rest and my joy are my work. And it keeps my work also feeling joyful.
Dan Moyer
What was that, again, your arrest and your joy are your work? Yeah. So that’s like trying to fit your work inside of your life rather than like working your whole life. Right, which I feel like is what so many of us creative entrepreneurs deal with is that like the biggest to use, like a term that the kids use these days, it like the biggest flex to be able to take a break in the middle of the day and go for a walk with your dog. Right? Like, like, I love this idea of me like a time billionaire, right? Like, let me just like that’s the biggest flex that I can drop everything and play with my kids to if we want him took my kids to my daughter to the one of those Bounce House places yesterday morning. Because that our twins were in school, it’s like, yeah, well, everybody else is doing this, I get to flex my time muscle millionaires and, you know, do what I feel like. And that’s like my definition of success. Is that where it came from? For you,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I think my definition of success is that and doing work that I really love, like, to me sort of back to that idea of like self care is like, I want to enjoy my life. And I don’t enjoy my life when it’s 100% work. And frankly, I don’t enjoy my life. My life when I’m in a really slow season. And I’m just like, I’m craving doing great work with people that I respect, like I’m craving being of service. And so to me, they’re intertwined. And I think I don’t know, what’s the biggest flux, I love having time abundance, like that’s something that, you know, we all get an uncertain amount, and it is a huge, it’s a huge luxury to be able to spend it how we want. I don’t think I fully finished my thought there but I’ll stop there.
Dan Moyer
It works. Alright, so when you’re like, when you feel like because I feel like work life balance or like this self cares, like, it’s not a destination. It’s like a direction, right? Like, it’s not like you’re ever like get to the end of the line or like I have work life balance now. It’s the journey. Yes, it’s the journey. But when you feel like oh my goodness, I’m I’m not on the right path here. I’m like not pointing in the right direction. How do you course correct and get back moving into this place? What’s that conversation like for you in your mind?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
So I am a every day journaler and I’m an every day reflector. And so you know when I’m on those walks with my dog. I’m of course thinking like, I’m excited about what I’m gonna go back and do in my office, am I and if not why? Or every morning I journal and I I’m basically course correcting every single day. And yesterday I was having a sort of a conversation with myself about capacity. And I’ve I have a new type of client in my business over the last year or so. And I’m learning how that type of client integrates with. The type of client I’ve always had because time is spent differently. My energy is spent differently and so previously I knew with a copywriting client, I knew how many Though I could I could do in a, in a month. And with my consulting clients, it’s a new kind of layering on that effect. And so I’m solving that now is like, Okay, what is the magic number? So I’m always reflecting about what is what’s right, what’s not going well? And how to sort of get that back on track? Or how to tweak it?
Dan Moyer
Are there? prompts that you come back to sort of daily? Like, is this is a formal journal that like already has prompts in it? Or is it just paper that you’re saying, you’re sort of answering the same questions over and over again,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
it feels like I’m answering.
Dan Moyer
Then he, that’s good. Because then you have like things to come back. He’s like, I will answer this same question like this a year ago. Now, my answer was better or not as
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, yeah. I recently learned the expression. There’s an expression in like, sort of personal growth realm that goes, new level new devil, like, you’re at a new level, and therefore there’s a new challenge for you to deal with there. And I recently heard that expression shifted a bit to a new level, same devil. And so, you know, I’ve had issues with my capacity over the years, and I’ve changed so much in my business, to not have that. And then here I am at a new level, and I’m like, oh, okay, but I actually am encountering sort of the same devil, but it’s like, it’s at a different level to keep using those words. mean, like, that’s how it feels like, it’s like, a lot of it is the same question that I’m revisiting, because it’s about what is satisfying, what am I enjoying? What what is keep getting in my way? Like, it’s sort of universal questions that when we look at those and answer those, we can’t help but course correct.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. New Level, same devil. That’s really interesting. And I’m trying to think about what my devils were in my photography space, because you know, I’ve been full time in there for 14 years since like, it was always it’s always been time management, it’s always been impostor syndrome. It’s always been being like very affirmation seeking from the rest of my community, right? Like, am I doing this right? Like, it’s always been being a people pleaser. And thankfully, through the help of therapy, that has also been helpful, like to go through some of those things and navigate them and, you know, figure out, you know, how to get through some of those things. But it’s interesting, because now I’m a, I’m a beginner, again, in the sense of like, so I’m moving into this new space of becoming a work life balance coach, for creatives, where I was coaching, lots of photographers on the business, I’ve got 14 years of business savviness, that I can help photographers grow their business. But now it’s like, well, now I’m a beginner again, in the coaching space, and how humbling that is, but like, the same thoughts are there? Can I do this? Can I actually do this? Am I? Is there imposter syndrome? Like all that stuff? Is there? Yeah,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
new level? Same? Then you’re right. That’s why we have therapy.
Dan Moyer
Yeah. So you’re talking about your clients, I want to shift gears here a little bit. Because we’re here, obviously, because you’re a communications expert. So as I was going through your website, and everything, there’s a bunch of different thoughts that I had. And the first thing that when you come to your website, the first thing you see is give voice to your vision. And for me, like my brain, since I’m a photographer, I’m a very visual person. And my immediate reaction was, this is what photographers need, because we’re so used to saying, Oh, my photos are going to speak for themselves. And I wonder, maybe you can give your experience on this that like we’re becoming this more visual society that I wonder if more like text is needed to break up that like visual barrage that’s coming at us. So I mean, what do you think about that, that we’re moving towards this visual place? What does communications in terms of like? copywriting and giving voice to your vision? What does that do for us?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I think we need a balance. I don’t think we successfully process information without visual and words. To sort of set aside like, people have different learning styles, but also, we feel through different mediums. And I think that’s always the balance that my clients are trying to seek is how do we show what we do our expertise, why we’re unique, you know, show the proof of our work our results, how do we show all that succinctly, clearly, concisely, in a way that’s really compelling? Because people don’t want to read a screen of words, and showing just a picture is not conveying all All of those aspects that resulted in for a photographer, one piece of, you know, one frame, there’s expertise, there is creative vision, there’s technical talent, there’s composition, there’s the relationship with their subject, there’s all the prep work that went into, you know, scouting, building the relations, like it’s all of that. And so you have to have both, I think, to be successful. Yeah.
Dan Moyer
I mean, you know, regardless of what we think of social media and all that kind of stuff, since how it’s so visual and Tik Tok is also so visual. Yeah, you know, what, in what you do? Or do you deal mostly with websites and web design? And designing specifically for that? Or do you also talk about, you know, how people are trying to give voice to their social media? Is it or is it the whole package,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
so I specialize in copy for websites, I almost always start there with clients. Because I think your website is your number one sales and marketing tool. However, as I develop a relationship with a client, as I become, in some cases, their brand voice, because they’ve delegated that some people are like, great, they’re able to take it on and run with it. But sometimes they are wanting assistance, translating certain really important messages to their social media, or to their brochures, to their, you know, sales decks or pitch decks, just helped a client create their team handbook. So expressing their culture and what makes them so unique and great together in a internal document for their team. So I almost always start with website, strategy, positioning, differentiation, and copy and then it, it can go a couple of different directions, if needed.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. Okay. Well, let’s, let’s like get sort of nitty gritty here on like, because there’s this term, I feel like needs to find a brand voice because I hear this all the time personal brand, and there’s, you know, like a corporate culture, what, what is your brand? Voice?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah. So let’s keep it really simple. So I think a brand voice is just, it is the way your business speaks. And it’s like, what’s the tone of that? Do you have a sense of humor? Where’s the alignment between you as a person and the person who’s going to show up in a client meeting? And what does that voice look like? Like, I think a brand voice is like a Venn diagram. And it’s like, it’s you. And then it’s, what is the standard for your industry? You know, like, what’s a what’s a customer kind of expecting to see? How do your customers speak? What like, like, thinking about it from their perspective? And then the brand voice is like, in the middle of that Venn diagram, it’s like you and what’s unique about you, and how you show up? And the way you kind of need to do that in your industry?
Dan Moyer
Yeah, so they might have different levels of overlapping, like, like you, you want to have a little bit of overlap, right? But maybe you don’t want a ton of overlap, you want to like exactly the language but stand out enough.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Exactly. Right.
Dan Moyer
So alright, so if I’m, you know, a solo business owner, how much are you trying to make it? Like, let’s use this example of just like a single person, right? Because I think most of the people that are listening to this are a one person outfit, or they’re, you know, a solopreneur, maybe they have like, they’re the business owner, and maybe they have a small team of freelancers that work for them or something like that, you know, how much of the business and like, the voice is you versus like, you want it to be sort of corporate because one of the things let me put it this way. One of the things that always trips me up is when you know, the business is a single person, but they used we all the time. It’s not we It’s you, right? But there’s got to be, I don’t know.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
No doubt, I agree. 100% of getting that with this. I have clients who try to put we and I’m like, No, you’re, you’re lying. Exactly. Yeah, own it. And why set an expectation that you’re something that you’re not, why try to look different than then you’re not but when when when you are the one who’s going to get on the sales call. You’re the one that’s going to show up. It’s your incredible expertise. It’s your talent, it’s your vision, it’s your skill. Own it like you said if you are planning to grow if you are using associates more than you’re the one you know showing up and shooting or you know, delivering the creative service. Great start to reposition as we and us but if it’s you own it,
Dan Moyer
yeah, speaking of owning it, there was like a period in your business when You were feeling like you were not owning it. And you completely wiped your website clean. I feel like this is a lot of what’s happening. This happens to all of us, like every couple of years, you’re looking at your website. Yeah. Oh my gosh, is this what is this? Right? Whether it’s your photos, the portfolio, the words on your website, and so you are like, this is not me. And you literally on your website, I love that whole About Me section. I also love how its laid out with like, the left side is like the big question. And then there’s like headings with little text in between, it’s lovely. Yeah, cuz like you could read the big text, and you can only read the headings, and you totally get the whole story. And it’s Yeah. But anyway, so you wiped your whole website clean. And, and just like, figured out this path to make your business you you’re talking about that sort of experience? And how do I relate to other people? Yeah,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I knew that I wanted to start a business, I knew that there were a bunch of things I was interested in really good at one of which was copywriting in a marketing context. But I had worked in house as a marketing manager for most of my 20s. And so I also was a pretty experienced document designer, I had a side business consulting in the online dating space. So again, like helping people to present themselves as who they genuinely are, so that the right people could find them. And I was a web designer as well. So I had all of these areas, right. And so and so it was, it was hard to be like, Okay, I’m quitting my job. And I’m doing my own thing. And there were so many things that I was doing that it took me a solid, almost a solid a year to figure out what I wanted to focus on. So that was like round one of riping, wiping my site clean. Like I’ve I’ve done that many times, as you pointed out, because a couple of years past and we evolve, we realize where we want to niche down or we realize that we have a different kind of target client than we did before. And so it that evolution is really essential to our growth, I think and so the wiping clean that I was referencing in my about story was that moment where I was like, I’m trying to be too many things to too many people. What do I really love the most, where can my talents serve the most, let’s just call it that. And I happen to be really a really talented web designer, who is also a copywriter. And so at that time, the marriage of copy with web design, for me was really lucrative because there’s there are not a lot of people who are doing both. And so somebody could come to me and get all of it in one place. However, I’ve since wiped my site clean. And there was a time in my business where I was operating sort of as an agency model. And so I was hiring a design dream team for the client. And I wasn’t doing web design anymore, because I was working with people who are far better designers and developers than me who were also super talented branding designers, and brand strategist. And so another wipe clean was to sort of realign myself with that part of my business. And it was me owning, and again niching down that I’m going to be sort of chief strategist, head of studio, I’m responsible for brand voice and coffee. And I’m going to lead this great design team. And where I am in my business now. I’m due for another wipe clean, not of the copy. But I need to more clearly articulate that. I don’t operate as an agency anymore. I focus only on strategic copy positioning differentiation. And I consult with clients on their own messaging, and I help them build the design team they need, but I’m not you know, I’m not an agency who’s running that anymore.
Dan Moyer
I can hear like, I can hear like tons people listening like yeah, I’m gonna go wipe my slate clean. That’s it on like, starting over, I’m owning it and they’d like, press the delete button, then they’re like, blank cursor, right? Like, like, I’m feeling that right now. And I’m what’s the work though? Because like, when you start from fresh, it’s like, oh my gosh, like you’re hyped and then all sudden, the next moment like, wow, I really have to come up with the stuff that is me. This website is the digital version of me. What do you do? How do you write that down? How do you distill that?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, it’s really hard to
Dan Moyer
that’s why you hire Emily.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
That’s why you hire me but the thing is, is like, yeah, it it’s so hard to do for yourself. It’s so hard to, to do that for yourself. You’re so close to what you do. And so I’d Do that for my clients, because I’m great at doing it for them. And it’s hard for me to do it for me, like, that’s just the truth of it. But I do think that when you get really clear on your absolute ideal clients, and you understand what they value, what they’re looking for, what results they want. And when you speak to your ability to create those results, to provide the expertise that they want, like coming to your website, not to say, here’s why I’m so fabulous, but speaking directly to the people that you’re going to work with and saying, here’s how I know how to help you. I understand your challenges. And I have solutions. And this is what they look like. I think that is what for me, helps me get out of the oh my god, I’m so close to me and what I’m doing, it’s hard to talk about me when I shift it and I talk about speak to my ideal clients, that makes it a whole lot easier. And of course, that’s what people want to read when they come to your website is like, how are you going to help me the customer? So it’s double duty there?
Dan Moyer
Yeah. So you’re saying sort of forget about you as like the person because people are not really interested in you. Like they’re interested in themselves and like how you can make their life better. So is that what you because? Is that what you lead with?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I do? Yeah. Yeah. And there are different schools of thought, like, especially in the photography industry, I think that and probably in lots of others, but I happen to have worked with a ton of photographers early in my business is like, there is this tendency to say, Hi, I’m so and so I, you know, this is what my personal life looks like this is I really, I’m a heart center, blah, blah, blah, I value like my passion for my couples, blah, blah, blah, like to lead with all that. Yeah. Versus leading with? It’s like, it’s kind of the same thing, but it’s like, what do you what do your clients want? Is it like artistic documentation? Is it you know, candids that feel really natural, is it? You know, there’s like talking about style, but there’s also talking about the process, the way you’ve designed your service to make it really easy for them to go through this, you know, intense time. So there’s, it is about you, but it’s through the lens of what they want.
Dan Moyer
There’s immediately what I thought of when you said like, oh, we should lead like with what’s in it for them? Because so many of the website templates and photography templates is like, it almost doesn’t even hardly starts with a picture of a couple. It’s like, it’s like you’re selling you. And again, like, depends on like, if you’re a coach, right? Like you’re selling exactly, that kind of stuff. But that’s so tricky, because you’re so right. When you get there, it’s like Hi, um, this is like, here’s three adjectives about me learn more about me. And then, like, how effective is that?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I personally don’t think it’s like, I think great. Build a personal connection. Yeah. But that shouldn’t be the majority. That shouldn’t be like the absolute first impression that you’re making, I don’t think and so that my school of thought is, is, is very different from that trend, which is prevalent, and probably for a reason, which is that it works for some people, it there’s actually not like a one right way to do it. But the way that I lean is speaking directly to the client.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. Obviously, there’s a space for, you know, learning about you on the about page. But is this what have you read building a story brand by Donald Miller?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I’ve read pieces of it. I get books out of the library, and then read pieces and then return I don’t remember. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
yeah, I don’t often read like from beginning to end, like I sort of like look at the chapters. And sometimes things hit. I also read several books at one time, because yeah, major ADHD. But anyway, it’s this whole thing about like, making it just like blew up. And I felt like it was very natural for me. But I realized, like, the photography world is very much about like me, my work, this is what I can do. This is how I approach your wedding. And this whole idea of building a story brand was like, put that like make the person your hero and you’re like, or they’re, they’re the hero near like, helping solve their problem or whatever. And it seems like that was so groundbreaking the photography world because it moved, like the focus off of me and my work to let’s like, let me show you how I can serve you and that kind of thing.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I think that’s also indicative of how people evolve in their businesses, is we start out thinking, I have a business like people need to know why to pick me. Right? And the longer we do what we do, we realize people aren’t picking us necessarily they’re picking what we can do for them. Right. And when we highlight what we can do for them, we are also secondarily showcasing why we’re so great. So like we can we can achieve both and I just think that it is a little bit more Powerful when somebody comes to your website, and they feel seen and heard,
Dan Moyer
yeah. Seen heard and understood, right? That’s basic things that everybody wants. Do you know Simon Sinek? Is you familiar with him? Yeah, he was like, you know, the whole start with Y thing. And I wonder if people have appropriated that as like people don’t buy what you do they buy why you do it, right? It’s like, well, let me just spout off all these reasons, right from the get go of like, why I do this, and why I want to change your life and all that kind of stuff. And I think this adjustment of like, No, this is why like, we can get to that later. But like, this is how I can help you. This is like the, like the first thing that when you come to my website, this is it. And so when you’re when you’re working with your clients, are you asking them to do like market research, so that way they can talk to their client and know exactly what it is that like they can speak to from that first thing, right? Because it’s like, you can’t just guess, like what their clients major pain point is like? Or what kind of research is involved in like that part of copywriting?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, so I have a very extensive discovery questionnaire. very extensive. And so I’m asking my client, to the extent that they understand a lot of information about what they know, about what their clients are looking for, what their pain points are, what their desires are. And then I’m also asking them for examples of their competitors, their role models in their industry, so that I can also look at what are the what are the gold standards? And where do we want to, like buck the status quo so that we can stand out. And so we’re, we’re leaning on my clients understanding of what they do, and why they are so special and understanding of what their their clients need and want. And we’re seeing what the industry kind of demands. And then we’re presenting it in a way that is really clear, upfront, that my clients I see here understand what their client’s needs are. And then, you know, while establishing their expertise and outlining their services in a way that’s very results focused all those things.
Dan Moyer
Can you share a little bit about what’s on that questionnaire?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
It’s so long, I don’t even know the I mean, so simple questions in the, like, ideal, ideal clients section is like, what kind of solutions? Are they looking for? Like, what’s the experience? What are the outcomes? What are their pain points? What are some of the tangible results that you create? So you know, it might be photos, it might in my case, it might be like, increased? People filling out your inquiries form on your website. But then also, what are some of the intangible results that you create? And so, you know, in my clients case, it’s like, their confidence in their own brand message, clarity in how they describe what they do, and what the results are, you know, ease, you walk into a networking event, and you can really clearly say what you do, who you do it for, and you know why you’re different on having an understanding of why you’re different. And so that’s a handful of them. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
gotcha. Interesting. So that there’s a lot more than that.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, it’s a really long questionnaire. To be fair, it’s like I’m when I am copywriting for a client or when I’m consulting with a client, I am asking them to come to the table with as much understanding as they can about who they are and what they do and who they’re here to serve, and how, you know, play at the professional level, because that enables me to either write their differentiation, their positioning and their copy, or it enables me to coach and guide them to get that out of their own copy if they’re writing their own brand messaging.
Dan Moyer
Okay. So if they’re writing their own brand messaging, this like big questionnaire is like the brain dump to get it out of up here, onto the questionnaire. How, if you’re coaching somebody on that, how do you begin to say like, Okay, we have this huge amount of information, we have this huge amount of, you know, stuff that is you it’s like the written word of you, your business, all that stuff. How do you start coaching them through distilling that down to this like, one or two liner? Right?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Because I don’t I don’t make them start with a one or two.
Dan Moyer
But that’s the ultimate goal. It’s got to be one thing. Yeah. One sentence two. rule them all,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I usually I usually help them back into it. And so we might tackle a unimportant page, first of their website, like, and I also I help them I start with a website page, like I don’t say like, now we’re going to write your positioning statement, which is like sort of this conceptual thing. So I, I focused them on. Okay, let’s write for your homepage. We know we want to outline like, what’s your client’s challenge? They’re coming to your website with a challenge. What is it? What are they looking for? What do they need, from your perspective? Like? What are three ways that you help them solve it? Why? Why are you like, what? Why are you the the choice like, because there’s usually a paragraph somewhere on the homepage, that’s like, by the way, I’m, you know, I do that. It’s me. And it’s like, and through that process, sometimes we start with their services page, if they’re just like, you know, the homepage is like, that’s too much big stuff. It’s just like, hey, let’s just talk about like, what are your two or three services? What are the outcomes of those, like, you know, let’s roughly touch on your process. Maybe sometimes that’s a separate page. But it’s like, we start there. Because out of that process, if somebody else is writing their own copy, golden nuggets, start to appear in what they’re writing, and then I help them. I pull those out. And I say, Hey, I think this is a really excellent tagline. Or what do you think about this with these adjustments? Because I think you have to make it appeal more to them, or you know, whatever my recommendations are, but we start with the website copy. And we start with smaller chunks. And then from that come the one liner, the one liner to rule them all.
Dan Moyer
Yes, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I guess it’s like the low hanging fruit, right? Like stuff that doesn’t have to be super creative. Like, what’s your age? Yeah. Right. But then, when you’re, like, it’s so easy as a photographer to be like, I kept I am made to capture moments. I am. I was having a camera in my hand since I was four years old, right? Like, that’s the story for so many people. And it’s like, if you want to stand out, that’s like, it’s tricky. When you want to get to that high level stuff on the main page. Like how do you go from, you know, this generic feeling to trying to move somebody? And that’s
Emily Hammel-Shaver
why you have to talk to what your, what your clients want, because you won’t move them if you say the same story about I had a camera in my head. Like, I write telling stories is my heart like, yeah, yeah.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Don’t do it. Because you won’t stand out. To bid on your house. Don’t do it on your
Emily Hammel-Shaver
about page because somebody is going to skim that. Yeah. But they’re probably not going to read that word for word and see, see that you you to have a passion for houseplants and Stranger Things. Like, it’s, that’s not what’s going to sell them.
Dan Moyer
Such great random things,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I think, because it’s always like splintery it’s always three random things that are like, okay, I get it. You’re human, but like, yeah, people, people care, but they don’t care that
Dan Moyer
it’s so so the new I’ve got so many thoughts right now, the new website of them building for Daniel more coaching, I bought this really beautiful template is from a company who I really like and really trust. And, and it’s like, like, they have a lot of good reviews behind them and all that stuff. But there’s these like sections of it that are I believe this, I am doing this. And it’s like, yeah, I get that. But so much of it just feels like, like it’s a template. And I don’t know, trying to move out of that space of, like, everything’s so many websites just feel the same. It’s like, let me put my flat brim hat on and stand in a wheat field with the sun shining behind me. And like, or, like scroll up on my couch with a mug, or, you know, I’m playing with my kids or whatever, and trying to move beyond that space of like, you know, here’s like the three things about me too. Here’s the actual real stuff about me. And I think it took me over 10 years to be able to dial into my photography brand to say like, like, well also feel confident enough to say like I am, by the time the wedding day rolls around, we’re going to be best friends, right? Because there many people do not want that. They just want the hired help they want somebody to show up. But being able to speak directly to that and also match the pictures up of hundreds of couples I’ve taken photos with on their wedding day. That is like that’s what really connected with me. But you know, people don’t often have 10 years small businesses fail by five years. So how do you get it done sooner?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I think you have to start with where you are. are like, I think that that is okay. Like, do your best to share why you are uniquely qualified, have photos that, you know, sort of match that vibe, because not everybody, as you said wants to be the have a best friend photographer on their wedding day. That’s like know, know who you are, know what you want. Be okay with saying Enough about that. And then frankly, don’t worry so much about that. Like, spend more. Spend more time having honing your absolute best portfolio photos, like honing your message, interviewing your past clients about what they wanted, asking for testimonials, like reflecting on what went well. Post event, what didn’t go so well like improving your process. Like all those things, we were talking about course correcting at the beginning of the conversation, like put more energy into those things. So that you have an amazingly effective process that enables your talents to super shine that makes your clients absolutely delighted. And then you maybe don’t have to say, like so much about why you, you know, had a camera in your hand when you were four years old? And like, you know, Matcha which I do. Like, that’s not a defining characteristic, like,
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I think that’s why this is so hard. It’s like what, like, the low hanging fruit or like the things that I like, maybe you like them too. But then it’s really hard. And I think this is one of the things that it says on your website is like, it takes a lot of gusto or it’s like very, you takes a lot of courage to stand up and be like, This is me, this is what I do. And it’s not for everybody. And it takes a lot of self awareness. To say like, this is what I’m really good at. And and I think maybe the one of the reasons that I’ve been able to own like I’m being the best friend on the wedding day is because for a long time, I thought that my empathy was a weakness. And and now I realize it’s my superpower. So you know, that could be now I’m just like thinking about it, that could be part of it. But you know, when you’re putting yourself out there, especially as a creative and you’re, you know, saying this is my business and my business is me. It’s like when you put these things out there, it’s like hard to be rejected. It’s just tricky when to like distill all that stuff down to like the real version of you.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
And that’s why I think it’s smarter to not, and to make it about your customer. Like, yeah, I think I I think that’s how I bypass it is like the pressure. Yeah, the pressure of that. Yeah, exactly. Because if you write your site, and you show fantastic work in a way that makes people want to reach out to you, then you get to be you in that from that first conversation on. So you just get to sell yourself by being you. And then you don’t need to talk about Stranger Things. Like, you know, you can if you want. If you know you need an ice breaker, great. But I think it’s more about just like setting yourself up for success so that when you get in that conversation, and you can, in your case, like lead with your empathy, so that clients are feeling that from the very beginning of your very first conversation, that you’re paying attention to them that you understand what they’re going through that you’re already thinking about solutions, you have experience solving problems like theirs, then you don’t have to say that in a super long form in 20 different places on your website, because people will experience that with you. And they will get to the call with you. Because they’re already feeling like they are seen heard and understood in the way you have spoken to them and what they want in your website copy.
Dan Moyer
Wow, that was really beautifully put. It’s tricky, because
Emily Hammel-Shaver
you’re like your point is also that our business is our us. We are our businesses, when somebody’s rejecting our business, they’re rejecting us. And to that I say good, because then they’re not the right fit for us. Right. So that’s also why like, your website needs to talk to your ideal customer, not to everyone, which is what I was doing early on is like I’ll do these 50 things for any kind of business. And I’m super clear. It’s like my clients are visionaries. They are doing really interesting, groundbreaking things they have really hard to describe services and I help them to distill that in a way that actually differentiates them so that people in their industry can see how different they are from the competition. It’s like an That is not what I’m saying. The first year my business, it’s like, Do you have a business? Because I’ll write for it. I’ll design for it. Give me the money. Bills, yeah, subscription. And it did feel more like somebody was rejecting me when they didn’t hire me. But now that I have said, so clearly who I want to work with, people are responding to that they see themselves in that or they don’t. And then they can choose to reject me based on my pricing or, or my timeline or you know, something else like that, which is something I’m happy for, for us to reckon with at that point. But it’s like, it’s not really about like, do they like me? It’s about do they trust me to do great work? And will they enjoy working with me throughout that process? And that’s what they get when they first see on my website, what I say I’m gonna do for them, and then we talk about it. And then they see in that conversation that I can walk that talk. It’s like build trust, build trust, build trust, build trust. Yeah. When you
Dan Moyer
went from hiring, you know, and having anybody tried to hire you, too. Okay. I want to work specifically with visionaries. What was that? You know, was that about you sort of saying, like, these are the things I value, and these people will probably also value those things? Or like, how did you decide that like, these are the people you wanted to work with?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I had worked with a handful of people who were quite visionary. And I was like, Oh, these are really interesting projects. These are really fun. For me. The other ones are like a little bland. And it’s because like, they don’t want to stand out in the same way they do want to sort of fit in. And so it was sort of again, it’s like you start where you are, and then you learn and evolve. And I think none of that’s bad. Sometimes you I always I’m constantly experimenting with things. I’m constantly learning new lessons, and then integrating that into my next level. Because like, I don’t I, you know, I’m eight years in business. Now. I couldn’t have decided eight years ago that this is what I wanted to focus on. So I had to live that experience, I had to write for a somewhat boring client, and then write for a really interesting client really creatively challenging client and realize like, oh, I want more of that, like I see this theme appear, and I really like it. So let me niche down on that.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, one of the things I think is interesting is like you never mentioned like, Oh, I’m gonna go after this kind of client, because they have the most money. It was like, no, no, like, I worked with these people. And it’s very creatively fulfilling for me. And one of the things like the the buzzwords that’s running around the photography world right now is like, let me work with like, luxury clients, or luxury weddings. And I think that’s just, that’s just tied to people saying, like, well, that’s just like, I want to be able to charge $10,000 per wedding or whatever. But that, that, that like, the focus for you was so on. Like, yes, this kind of work is challenging, and creatively challenging for me, and that fills me more the money will follow. But like that was your goal is that like, this was this other kind of work, this other kind of copywriting was just not fun for me, and I’m gonna focus more here. And then you niched your entire business down when you found that out. Yeah.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
And there is there’s absolutely consideration about budget as I’ve grown, of course, and I think it’s a natural progression also, which is like, as my, as my work got better, because I was honing a process. And I was, you know, the questionnaire I have now is not the same questionnaire that I started with eight years ago. Like, as everything that I did got better. I naturally, like wanted more time to do it. I didn’t want to have like five copywriting clients at a time. And I saw that that wasn’t enjoyable. So it was like, Joy was always part of the equation. And then I started to realize like, okay, and I need to charge more for this, because it’s really good. And then I was working with so many solopreneurs. And I loved it. But then I worked with a couple of teams. And I was like, This is so interesting, gathering all of these perspectives. And so it’s like that naturally, working with slightly larger organizations came with a natural jump in budget. And I also worked with a business coach a couple of years ago to help me really take a bigger leap to a new level. And so I was like, absolutely the best investment I’ve made in my business, and absolutely came with a different level of client, but it’s like, because I could walk my talk. So I think, I think that pricing naturally solves itself. When you focus on being really good at what you do, and having a really efficient, easy process.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. How often do you suggest like, what’s the shelf life of copy that you create for people, right, like is there every couple of years that you should Be like updating or every couple of months, you’re like, oh, let’s just like keep checking the website and just little tweaks here and there. Like, what’s that shelf life? Like
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I say, it depends on where you are in your business. So if I’m helping, you know, I consulted with a client earlier this year, and they were launching a business. So for them, you know, we consulted over 10 months. And so every month we work tweaking something, because they were starting something brand new. And they were also refining what their business was as we went. But for a business that is, you know, been around five years or more, and they’re really clear on what the next level looks like for them. That copy can hang out until they are clear on what the next level looks like. And so hopefully, at least three years, which for me, feels feels like it’s sort of the natural, like, Okay, I’ve noticed this changing, even now, like I wrote my copy three years ago, and most of it isn’t going to change except for the Services page. And I’m going to tell a new about story on my about page.
Dan Moyer
Oh, I can’t wait to read that.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Don’t ask me what it’s about. Yeah. But it’s like, it’s the last page I’m gonna write because it doesn’t matter as much as like services really matter? Yeah.
Dan Moyer
Oh, man, I go right to the about page. Then again, people stories, but anyway, this kind of reminds me of like, when I was first in business, it’s like, like, every wedding, I’m putting new pictures in my portfolio, right? Like, I’m constantly updating, but now it’s like, well, something’s really got to blow my doors off to put it on my website, you know, pull that out of there. Because I’ve you know, so that makes a lot of sense to be able to say, okay, you know, what, especially with my coaching business, especially as I move into, like the, the work life balance side of it, as I work with people in there, people have different reasons and problems. It’s like, you just another random analogy. Have you ever played the game StarCraft by any chance? No. Oh, man. So there’s like a t is this game where like, you start out and like, there’s a circle in the bottom left corner, and it’s black. And if that’s the map, you can’t see anything you can see where you only see where you travel. And eventually, as you like, travel throughout the whole board, it becomes more clear as to what you’re doing. Yeah, exactly. And where you’re going, where the enemy is, and all that stuff. And it’s like, you know, the more that you do, the more people you talk to, the more the problem is revealed. And
Emily Hammel-Shaver
that’s okay. Yeah, it’s like, that’s, that’s really natural, it’s really organic. And when we’re paying attention to that, will know when our copy or our site or our portfolio needs to evolve. Yeah, it’s like, it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be a panic moment. Like, just pay attention. For me, well, you know, my panic room, I didn’t have a panic moment of like, wiping my site clean, it was just like, Okay, what I’ve been doing isn’t working. And I now have enough data on why like, as you said, like, the map is more clear. And I now have a clearer idea of where I want to go. So let’s, let’s pick the direction and see what it is. So other people know about it.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. I want to bring this like back to like the very beginning of this conversation. And, and actually wrote down one of the Instagram captions that I found that I really really liked, okay, and, and it like, it’s gonna tie that first part together. And we can finish up on like a couple of thoughts on this, but it was because you were talking about, in this particular Instagram caption, you’re talking about one of your past clients who you were working with reminded you at this like period of transition in your business that your headshots were a few years old, but your your copy was sort of updated and all that stuff. And that these headshots were out of date with like your new business direction, and that the two things needed to be like coinciding together, they need to be like lifted up together. And as photographers, I think we often like are constantly putting new photos out there, but we’re not thinking deeply about the copy that we’re putting out there. And when people come to our site with their reading, but I just love this caption, you can expand on it then or whatever, but I’m gonna read the caption now it says the cobblers child over here has committed a marketing crime image visual presentation was out of step with my verbal promise. Fortunately, the cognitive dissonance didn’t stop this great prospect from becoming a an incredible client. But she reminded me of this crucial truth. Your brand, voice and design are in a dance together, they can either bring out the best in each other, or step on each other’s toes. I love that. When the message is weak, it can’t even lift the most beautiful design. When the design doesn’t lead with the right step the message clearly can’t follow. But when both worlds and visual show up at their best, that’s when you stop noticing the steps and can feel the power and emotion over the movement inspired, confident motivated. How do you want prospects to feel when they take in the masterful presentation of your brand? This is this isn’t the time to stumble. Let’s leave them with a feeling they won’t regret. Oh,
Emily Hammel-Shaver
I really can’t do that dance. Thinking metaphor through.
Dan Moyer
That’s why I wrote it down. And I was like, like, I figured it would fit in here somewhere. But I thought it was like, like, you know, we talked so much about all this stuff, but I thought it was like it really draws together all of these thoughts that you’ve said, Do you have any final thoughts or things you’re thinking about? Or, or any ways to expand on that thing that she sort of called you out on?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, I think I think it kind of goes back to this idea of, if brand voice and how we show up on our websites, is we want that to be true to how we show up on Zoom, or in the meeting, I adore that client. And she, you know, I think we had our first meeting and she was like, your photo, she was like, your fucking doesn’t represent how this feels. She was like, your creative and I at the time had like a headshot that was very much representative still of my, like, more corporate days. Yeah. And, and it was such a great indication of what my clients expected from me. And it’s like, that’s the tone that we get to show up with, in person, but they have to, they have to feel it on the website. And I think the best way for them to feel it isn’t saying, I, I’m warm, I’m confident, I’m expert, I’m efficient, and I’m gonna guide but it’s like, have a have a visual, that carries that feel, say a little bit about it. Make it all about your fantastic customer journey, the fantastic, you know, results you’re going to create for your for your customers. And then they get to the zoom with you. And they’re like, this all makes sense. You’re exactly who I expected. Instead of like, telling you that you need to take a new phone
Dan Moyer
I just like that the the website builds to the crescendo of like, like being the state like getting you on the Zoom. And it’s like, yeah, this makes sense.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah. And you don’t want to whom you want to. Yeah, and again, we’re talking about like a service based business where like somebody might, you know, give an ecommerce business, the crescendo is like they press buy. But in a service based business, you’re building a relationship. And so everything that comes before that has to support the relationship that you’re that you’re starting with on in person.
Dan Moyer
Hell, yeah. So as we sort of like wrap up here, can you share a little bit about where people can find out more about you, where they can follow you, your website, all that kind of stuff?
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Yeah, so my website is Loomis communications.com. And Instagram is at Emily and Lu most, and I hang out on LinkedIn. But I frankly don’t do a lot of social media marketing, like I run experiments, but 99% of my business comes from referral. So my my chief business development activity is doing really great work for my clients. And every now and then I show up on Instagram so happy to happy to connect to their people just want to see what I’m up to.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I love Instagram was like this really nice. Balance this really nice dance between like your personal stuff, and then client testimonials and, and but also like really lovely writing throughout like even your Instagram captions, like I’ve like felt myself like going through and reading them because like, alright, well, this person is a copywriter, I want to see how good better the better because
Emily Hammel-Shaver
frankly, why probably don’t write and like I don’t post the town. Instagram isn’t like, pressure is too high. I’ll just do this good work for my clients. But every now and I do come on and like, you know, I have something to say and I want to say it well, and I’m aware that people are like, that’s the experience that would be building towards working with me. So I have to show up. Walk my talk there.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, you crushed it. In that caption, the dancing caption. Nailed it. Okay, this was lovely, thank you for your expertise for your I don’t know, just ability to, you know, be thoughtful and vulnerable. And also, like, I love this idea that my I think the biggest takeaway for me, was like making it less about like taking that pressure off when we talked about that, that part of the conversation taking the pressure off of like, well, I need to show up and like, this is me, you know, so it’s like, no, just put the focus on your client and how you can serve them and change their life. Right. That was the biggest thing for me. So thank you for that realization for me. So that’s how you affected me today.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. I really enjoyed this.
Emily Hammel-Shaver
Heck yeah. Thanks, Emily. You’re welcome. Thank you, Dan.
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