How can you get around the limiting beliefs that are holding you back from financial success? This episode is another installment of the missing ingredient series, where I’m sharing the hidden steps necessary for running a successful photography business. My guest, Karinda Kinsler, is joining me to discuss money mindset and the neuroscience behind our financial behaviors. We’re discussing the actions needed to break free from our old beliefs and to start forming new habits around money.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES
Karinda’s experience with her money mindset (3:35)
The work towards overcoming money blocks (6:40)
Writing it down and tell yourself a different story (10:53)
“I don’t have a $10,000 experience” (18:16)
Using repetition until it feels easier (21:05)
The neuroscience in money mindset (22:52)
Personal growth alongside business growth (25:37)
Common photographer struggles with money mindset (36:46)
Money mindset and self-worth (41:10)
Creating a $10,000 experience (46:36)
Advice for the photographer who is uncertain about finances (51:53)
Connect with Karinda (56:08)
CONNECT WITH KARINDA
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
Finance Focused Roadmap: focusedphotographers.com/ff
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Review the Transcript:
Dan Moyer
Hey photographer friends, welcome to the focus photographers podcast. Thanks so much for being here with me today. Talking about money feels strange, doesn’t it, whether it’s to our clients or peers or colleagues or family to ourselves, whatever, there’s something about money, especially when we asked for it. That feels like it’s hard and it gives you the sweat to give some people to sweat. Right? Well, today’s guest Kirinda Kinsler is here to help you work through some of these mindset issues. Now pause for a second. And before you write this episode off some woowoo mystical thing about how to change your mindset and feeling all the fields. There is some serious neuroscience that backs up the claims about money mindset issues, that are passed down through generations from experience from the things that you see as a childhood, and the neural pathways that are formed, which make it hard to get out of these habits and actions that we take. Kirinda is here to lay out some of the powerful ways that we can start to break out of these very well worn neural pathways and begin forming some new pathways to create some new actions. Krista is an equine photographer from Texas and a business and money mindset coach, she is so knowledgeable and is incredibly skilled at getting to the heart of the issue when it comes to money mindset blocks. She has some really great stories that she shares throughout this episode. But if you’ve ever had a conversation where you just feel really good and sort of hopeful afterwards, that’s what this episode feels like. It feels like you could take a deep breath, especially if you’re in the thick of it right now. So stick around. It’s a really great episode. This episode is part of a larger series called missing ingredients on the not so talked about parts of running a successful business. There’s lots of talk about pricing and presets and sales. But there’s so much more that goes into running a business. And that’s what this whole episode series is about. So without any further introduction, this is me and Kirinda Kinsler, let’s go.
Dan Moyer
This episode is brought to you by the finance focus roadmap, which you can find that focus photographers.com slash F F. It wasn’t that long ago that I had a terrible relationship with money. A toxic relationship with money is how I’ve described it before I spent money as quick as it came in, I never saved it. And the only thing I had to show for it was a mountain of debt over $100,000, not including our house. My wife and I got serious a few years ago, and have paid off over $70,000 of our debt. I have money set aside in my business account for taxes for cost of goods sold for just a rainy day. I have money going into retirement every month. And I generally just feel much better about our finances. If you want to know how we’re doing and how we’re actually working on it right now. You can go to focus photographers.com slash f f, where I created the finance focus roadmap that outlines the steps and habits that we’re using right now to take control of our money. Again, that’s focused photographers.com slash F F and you can download it today. All right, here we are. I’m glad you’re here. Kirinda thanks for coming on the show today.
Karinda Kinsler
Yeah, thanks for inviting me back. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
so you and I are two peas in a pod and that we both like to talk about money with our in our platforms and all that stuff. And it’s weird to talk about money because it’s sticky and feel strange to talk about and even not even just in self being self employed. But in this like, much bigger space of, you know, even in the workforce and corporate worlds, like people don’t talk about what they make and all that. And then you also talk about this money mindset where, you know, it’s it’s more than just like dollar signs and pricing and all that stuff. So my first question really is like, what is this about for you? Because as a creative, like, we don’t often talk about this. So where did this come from? And what is this money mindset stuff about for you?
Karinda Kinsler
So my story of when I discovered the whole mindset thing, and what was wrong with me? I was driving down the road to the barn to ride my horse. And I just remember, like having this really weird epiphany of like, Hmm, the thought of clients spending a lot of money kind of freaks me out, like, why am I scared of my clients swiping their credit card? And so much so that when I used to photograph weddings, I did not take credit cards. I was like, Nope, I’m not taking credit cards, they’re gonna go into, like your credit card. Like, I want checks and cash only. Right? And the thing is, is that I, I realized that, okay, something is going on here. And so the first thing I did when I pulled into the barn was pull up my phone and I was like, money mindset. And like, I don’t even know where the term came from, because I don’t even know that I’d heard it before. I just remember searching on my phone, money mindset. And I literally booked a call with the first coach that popped up about my mindset. And I remember sitting on that call with her and she started like asking all these questions about like, my childhood and my family and the way they handled their money. And all of a sudden it was like, Oh, wait, this makes sense. Like the way I saw my family and my parents handling money growing up Totally, is what’s causing this. And I realized that I was essentially leaving, probably at that time, hundreds of 1000s of dollars on the table by subconsciously repelling money, which sounds crazy and stupid, like who’s going to repel money, but a lot of us are actually doing that. And when I really dove into this whole money mindset thing, I started to realize that it’s not only money mindset, there’s a lot of these other areas and nuances that this comes up in our business. And for me, that really changed my business, my sales went up substantially. Just everything changed. And I really started looking at things in a different way. When my own business
Dan Moyer
Yeah, this Alright, so this is like, great high level stuff. And I feel like everybody out there is like, yeah, like, I got a money issues too. Like, I can tell you, I have very similar story where I remember like, making good money in the first couple of years, my business and I’m like, wow, but I had this, I was driving across this one bridge outside Philly, my accountant calls and he’s like, you make great money this year. You’re crushing it, you’re doing great job. And I’m like, I hung up that phone. I’m like, All right, where is it? Where’s all that money, then if I’m doing great, and it was, I can pinpoint it back to I remember, like my parents working their butts off. You know, my dad worked at like Sears selling siding at night. He was a produce manager. My mom was hustling doing Mary Kay and all this stuff. And I remember being like, okay, they’re working super hard. But yet, it never feels like we have enough money or, you know, maybe money changes you like who are all like the at least what I thought was, you know, who are the people who are like aggressive drivers. It’s these big fancy cars weaving in and out. And I’m like, okay, money changes. I don’t want anything to do with money. So what I’m wondering is like, you know, that’s, that’s great when you when you realize, like, there were some stories that your parents told you or things that you saw, but what was the work? Like? What’s the work that you did to start overcoming that?
Karinda Kinsler
Yeah, so I think the first thing was just recognizing like, okay, I get funny feeling. So I like to say, a good sign that you have money mindset issues is, if the thought of dealing with your money, like checking your bank account, looking at your numbers each month, paying your sales, tax, paying taxes, all of those things, if the thought of dealing with your money freaks you out, it’s a good sign, you have a money mindset. And then furthermore, like when it comes to setting your pricing, or you’re like, Oh, I’m not, I’m not good enough for this, I can’t charge these prices, there’s no way people are ever gonna pay these prices. That’s another thing. You have a money mindset issue. But then furthermore, when it comes to actually communicating with your clients, if you’re not able to just sit there and be like, yeah, it’s gonna cost $5,000. Sometimes people might spend 20,000 hours with me, Are you cool with that? Like, it has to be something that just rolls off your tongue, like, no big deal. If you’re saying your numbers to your clients. And internally, your heart’s racing, your palms are clammy, like, it just makes you want to, like run out the door and throw up because the thought of saying those numbers to people freaks you out so bad. That’s a major problem. Because you might not realize it, that like your clients get that but I can promise you, your clients since the hesitation, there’s a big difference and saying like, yeah, that Camus will be Oh, $5,000. Like, yeah, that’s $5,000 school, do you want it or not? So I remember a day when I literally wouldn’t say my prices, I do my reveals on Zoom, and I would pull up a note on zoom on my computer, and I would type up 40 by 60, Canvas, $5,000, because I just couldn’t say it, like the thought of saying it was so scary. And now it’s just like, no big deal. Here’s the numbers. And I think that those are all signs. And first of all, you have to recognize the signs of, okay, these things are happening. Maybe there’s a mindset issue here related to money. And then furthermore, saying why is this happening? Like, where’s this coming from? You know, what have I been told about money growing up? Or what? How did my family treat their money? How did I see people around me working for their money or, or just managing their money? Like, did I see people being, you know, not handling their money? Well, so I’m assuming that if my clients are spending money with me, maybe they’re just flippantly spending their money and going into debt for me. Or maybe was I was it that I’m scared of people who have a lot of money, because my parents raised me saying people who are wealthy are terrible people, and they’re greedy, and they’re not good to work with. So all of a sudden, you don’t want to raise your prices, because you don’t want those clients subconsciously like you’re repelling those clients that can afford to spend a lot of money with you. Because you’re afraid of them. Because something somebody told you when you were five years old, that all of a sudden you’ve chosen to believe so I think that’s kind of the second step is once you acknowledge, looking at where these things have come from, and then it’s really starting to flip these stories. So I like to say write down all these things that freak you out. about money, write them all down and really just look at them and say like, is this actually true? Is it true that people who have lots of money and will spend 10s of 1000s of dollars on portraits are bad people, and they’re going to be terrible to deal with? No, it’s not true. You don’t know that. You might be making assumptions about people. But that’s not true. Is it true that someone’s swiping their credit card means they’re going into debt for you? Heck, no, it means they want their airline miles. Right? It’s really just looking at things proactively and being like, Okay, did I make this up? Or is this actually a real thing I’m worried about, because most of these things that we’re worried about, and the stories and preconceived notions we have, especially surrounding money are just stories. That’s all they are. They’re stories, we’re telling ourselves,
Dan Moyer
there’s a lot in that I wrote down a bunch of stuff that like, my brain is like, Oh, I wanna know about that. And I wanted to know about that. The thing that comes to my mind first is like, just getting curious about, like, the feeling that you’re having, and, and just exploring it right. So you said, you just said, Alright, get curious about it. And then it’s, it’s write it down, and then see if it’s actually true, what’s that saying? mushrooms grow in the dark, or mold grows in the dark, or something like that. But it’s like, it’s like when you when you like, have all these things just festering in your mind. And like, that’s, it just keeps like marinating over and over again, it’s really hard to separate yourself from the feelings, right? But having like, an action that you can take to literally write it down is like, is moving it out of your brain into this space where you can actually examine it, right?
Karinda Kinsler
It’s like, when you shine a light on it, and you actually look at it, you’re like, oh, that’s silly. But for some reason, when it’s our brain, in our brain, we can like, justify it and be like, oh, yeah, that’s totally true. But then we write it down. And all of a sudden, it hits differently. It’s like reading a written book versus listening to a book, right? We get different things when we actually see it on paper sometimes. So putting it on paper, is like, I really think that’s your way of actually truly acknowledging that it’s a real thought in your head. Other than just like letting it exist, and letting it run our business and our lives. And like, this isn’t just business, right? This is our personal lives that are also impacted by this in a really big way.
Dan Moyer
I think you said something about like, okay, when you write it down, you have to flip that and tell yourself a different story. Do you have any examples or like things maybe you’ve seen with your students or something where they have this one issue, or maybe even your, your personal story of like, this is the thing I’m seeing, this is what I’m having? here’s the here’s the switch that I can flip, or here’s like the new story, I can tell myself? Yeah.
Karinda Kinsler
So I think something that I felt like was, there are not enough clients who are willing to spend 1000s of dollars on their portraits. That was something that I really believed, like, yeah, I could find a few of those clients, but I wasn’t gonna find enough of those clients to build, you know, a three $400,000 business. And so my new story was actually, there are tons of clients everywhere I look that are ready and willing to invest 1000s of dollars on their portraits, and they’re going to pull out their credit card and swipe their credit card happily, knowing that this is something they truly want. And so like, that’s an example of, obviously, it encompasses a lot of little things that I was dealing with. But the thing is, is when I first came up with that new mantra is what you call them. Whenever I came up with that new mantra, I was like, this is total BS. Like, this is a lie. This is not true. I don’t believe this at all. Like the mere thought of like, coming up with that line and writing it down was like, Oh, this is this is this is big, feels like this is not true at all. Yeah. And I think that’s the thing is that in the beginning, when you start going through this process, you’re gonna feel like these new stories you’re coming up with, are totally bogus, and they’re not real, and there’s no relevancy to them. And like, you’re gonna feel like, okay, this is silly, why am I doing this? But the cool part is, is that our brains are actually created in a way that’s going to help us over time with work. rewire our brains. So do you mind if I share the science here? Oh, please.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, absolutely.
Karinda Kinsler
Give it to me. So, um, you know, whenever you’re a little kid and your parents tell you don’t touch the stove, because it’s hot, right? We know it’s hot. We’re like, okay, it’s hot. But one day as a little child, we’re probably going to touch the stove and burn ourselves. It’s why as adults, even if you walk up to a stove that you know is off, you’re still going to, like hesitate to touch it, because you’re gonna think like, Okay, is it actually off? Is it gonna burn me? Because it’s so hardwired in our brain, that we’re not even thinking about the fact that it could be hot. It’s like we go to put our hand on the stove and our hand is yanking itself back before we even like mentally realize, Oh, we’re resisting the urge to touch the stove because we believe it’s hot. So when it comes to our business, what happens is that we have these precon Same notions about money, for example, people, you know, don’t want to spend 1000s of dollars on portraits, or they just want digital files, for example. And we have these preconceived notions, we’re going into business, and then all of a sudden, we have an experience that is kind of like that, because we are going to run into these situations, not every client and every person is going to be excited to spend all this money with us. So we’re gonna run into that situation, it’s gonna happen. And then our brains like, oh, we were right, we were right. Our brain is like, I am confident and my belief of that. So I’m going to jump to that conclusion before she even has the chance to think it. Subconsciously, we go to talk about money to clients, and our brain is already saying, no, no, no, no, they’re not going to spend money, we’re going to resist. And we, as people don’t realize what’s happening, we feel these weird sensations. But it’s such a deeply embedded subconscious thing, that our brain is literally keeping us safe. It’s a protection mechanism. And what happens is that when we begin to rewire these stories and rewrite these stories, we’re actually rewiring our brain. So we’re telling our brain like, hey, now it’s okay. The stove is off, we can touch it. No, it’s okay. Our clients will spend money. And there’s two ways we can do this. We can either like fumble through life and be scared to death and like, hope and pray that enough clients eventually spend the money that our brain is convinced we’re okay, and we’re safe. Or we can trick our brain. And the thing is that our brain doesn’t know the difference between reality and what’s not actually happening. We can trick our brain into believing a new reality by simply repeating mantras speaking them out loud, seeing them reading them. We can also use practices like visualization to further trick our brain into believing like, oh, that’s our new reality. Yeah, people come and spend lots of money all the time. Kirinda sitting over there daily working on this visualization practice and saying these words. And all of a sudden, my brains back, they’re like, Yeah, that’s normal. So the next time a client calls me brands like, yeah, they’re gonna spend lots of money. It doesn’t mean it’s even happened yet. But we’ve tricked ourselves and our brain by essentially understanding how our neural pathways work. So these neural pathways form that are so automatic, and we have to essentially break them, and then put new ones back together. That way, we don’t have to fight it ourselves quite so hard.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I feel like this is there’s three things that I’m thinking of one is that like, I feel like this is the difference of like, saying, like, Oh, I just wish I was a person who, who woke up early, oh, just wish I was a person who exercised, versus saying, like, I’m a person who exercises, I’m a person who wakes up early, and like repeating that and doing it at some point it’s going to catch on, right, like, over the last couple of years, you know, I felt like a lot of my worth, as a person was tied up in my being a photographer. And then when I when the pandemic hit, that was not good. And I was frustrated. And I was irritable. And I was like, not the best version of myself to my kids and stuff. And my, my therapist, you know, talked about this all the time like this, like one, like getting space from your thoughts, but to repeating the things that like that you want, like in forming these new neural pathways through repetition, visualization, but also through like, just doing the thing, just do making the hard choice. Everything that you’ve said, like, I’m totally on board with, right? Like, I’m on board with creating these mantras and visualizations and all that, but I hear somebody out there being like, Okay, that’s great. But I don’t have an experience that’s worth $10,000 a client, I don’t have this or that. And so I’m thinking about that. And I’m just wondering, like, what do you say to that person?
Karinda Kinsler
I feel like you don’t know. Until you try it. I don’t think I honestly don’t think anybody like sits there and thinks in the early days, like, oh, yeah, sure. I can go out and make 1000s of dollars. Wouldn’t it be cool if I did clients been like 10 or $15,000? Me? I don’t think anyone thinks that. But I think that what you have to do is you have to first of all be like, Okay, this is a possibility. It could happen. It could happen because it happens to other people, first of all, and then secondly, set your business up in a way where your business can result in clients like that. You can’t sit there and say, I’m never going to have clients spend 1000s of dollars yet, there’s no way for your clients to even spend 1000s of dollars. It’s like, you know, you might think that no one’s ever gonna buy that really high end product from you. But how are you going to know unless you just put it on your price list and are showing it and talking about it? One day, somebody’s gonna buy it and they’re gonna prove you wrong. And you’re gonna be like, Wow, I’m glad I just put that on my price list, even though I wasn’t sure it was gonna happen. So I think just knowing that there are people doing the thing is the first step and then setting yourself up to where the potential for it to happen is there and being open for it.
Dan Moyer
No, see, I love that because like, that was one of the things I heard early on is like, if you want a $10,000 wedding All, right doesn’t mean that every wedding has to be a $10,000 wedding. But like, at least when you’re starting to say that, make that decision of I want my weddings to be this, can somebody even just by adding things on to their experience with you get to 10,000? Is it even just a possibility doesn’t mean you all sudden start at $10,000 and go from 10,000 to 4015 26? Maybe you start at five, and then there’s other things that they can add on. That’s a great point. Yeah.
Karinda Kinsler
And I think like, that’s when sometimes, and this goes into pricing a little bit, but people pigeonhole themselves a lot by just putting a limit on what their clients can spend. And I remember when I was shooting weddings, I was like, that was my thing. I was like, I want like, over $10,000 wedding, like that was my, if I’ve done that, I’ve made it and I think the I got to the like $9,700, one of my last weddings that I shot, and I was like, I’m done. I’ve made it double things. Take me out. I’ll only do another wedding. If it’s like at least $20,000 You just have to come book with me pay me 20 grand up front, I’ll maybe shoot their wedding if I feel that.
Dan Moyer
The other thing I keep hearing is this, like, you know, this repetition, where you said about visualization, all that. But then you also said about like, over time, like it’s going to feel really weird to say I’ve got this 60 by 40 canvas, that’s $5,000. But like, the more that you keep saying it, the more that you keep bringing it up and showing it that makes it easier on you. And especially when you finally get that person who buys it. Who spends the $5,000 on this one thing, you know, that’s got to be the the icing on the cake so to speak. I think
Karinda Kinsler
it works like this, I think it works where like in the beginning, you’re just saying like, Oh, that pots in the back of my head, then you’re like, oh, that thoughts in my head, I need to like step in and stop that thought. Because I like to think about it this way. You wouldn’t say the stuff you say to yourself to your child. So why are you thinking to yourself? Like that’s essentially what bad mindset is, it’s us just talking mess to ourselves and saying things to ourselves that we wouldn’t say to someone we love or we wouldn’t want somebody that we love to say about themselves. So why are we doing that to ourselves? So when you catch yourself trash talking yourself, being like, Oh, I’m doing that thing. I need to stop doing that. And then repeating the new story repeating the new mantra. And what happens is that over time, it gets easier, and you’re no longer having to step in and be like, Oh, I had that thought because now your brain is saying, oh, Corinne is having that thought she’s about to tell herself No, that’s not true anymore. And then all of a sudden, your brain catches itself before it even comes into your like, view and as you before you even feel it. And that’s when you know that you’ve really flipped the script here. And you’ve adjusted and you’ve shifted your mindset, you talk
Dan Moyer
a lot about like the neuroscience behind this. I think it’s beautiful that you match this, you know, the stuff that we’re actually feeling, especially when it comes to pricing and preset or pricing and like this money that you have the really talk about the neuroscience behind it. Where did that come from? Is that was that something that you talked with your that initial money mindset person about? Or was that just personal curiosity? Where’d that come from?
Karinda Kinsler
Yeah, so um, I thought it was a lot of woowoo. In the beginning. I still tell people like, hey, you know, as a business coach, I’m going to give you a bit of woowoo. But I’m going to tell you that the woowoo is backed by science, because this is the way we were designed like, this is the way our brains work. And this is cool, like we should be using this. But I think actually what happened is that my husband went back to school to get his master’s. And when he went back to school to get his master’s in engineering management at Texas a&m. They had what they called a residency week, funny enough, residency week was centered around emotional intelligence. Oh, because it was a management based like master’s program. So they wanted to teach engineers, essentially people who probably don’t have a lot of people skills, to no offense engineers, those type of people to have people skills into work and deal and manage people. So the whole week was centered around emotional intelligence. And Dr. Zoe’s the professor that runs this program, and he’s absolutely amazing. The whole thing they talked about was have you there’s a book called Emotional intelligence. And that’s what they studied that week. And they actually had them doing like, journaling and meditation and all this stuff. And I remember my husband calling me after the first night and he was like Kirinda Did you know all this stuff you’ve been doing? Like there’s science behind it, like we’re reading a whole book and like he had us do like this meditation and, and he was like, Kirinda there’s like all this science behind it’s really cool. And I think that’s when I was like, Oh, this is neat. Light Bulb, like learning more about it. I He was like telling me all about the things he learned. And I was like, Okay, this is it. This is what I needed for my naysayers and my coaching clients who come to me and they’re like, I don’t need that mindset stuff. That’s woowoo. It’s not real, for me to be like, yeah, it’s real. Here’s why it’s real. Yeah. And then the people who are more practical, logical brain, people who were my coaching clients, I was able to say, like, this works, and this is why you need to do it. And I got a lot less resistance, even though there’s still always resistance, when you say, Hey, you have to deal with your mindset first, or else, everything I teach you is going to be pointless. That’s
Dan Moyer
a, that’s a big one. I started thinking about, like, how so many business owners focus just on the business, and they’re just trying to, like, hammer away on this business. And what ends up, what ends up happening is, when you’re only focused on the business, you have to make these concessions, you have to make some of these, what’s the other word, I’m looking for these trade offs. And I feel like the first thing that Go is like your relationships with other people, because you’re so focused on this next thing, and that was sort of like your physical health, because you’re just sitting behind a computer all the time, you’re editing pictures, you’re like, you know, just going to shoots and like, That’s it, your sleep goes. And the last is sort of like your mental health. I feel like it’s, there’s like this hierarchy. And I feel like you’re in the same space where it’s like, when you work on your business, you actually want to work on you, too. It’s like physical, mental, then business, right? Like everybody’s working on, they’re skipping all that stuff and going right to the business first, but like, You got to work on this other stuff. And so it sounds like for you, it’s your business coach. But you’re also talking about, like, grow yourself as a person too.
Karinda Kinsler
Yeah. 100%. Um, I, that is really huge. And you know, it’s funny, because in the marketing world, they say, like, you, you sell people with what they think they want. And then you give them what they actually need. And I’ve struggle with this, because my coaching program was called master your mind and money. Nobody wants to actually master their mindset or their money. No, come to me and be like, Yeah, let’s work on my mindset and money. Kirinda. But I’m like, I will die on this hill of like, I don’t care if you don’t want to hear it. But I will keep preaching this until the day I die. Because it’s so important. I have this pair of photographers that we did one on one coaching, they were friends. So we did two on one coaching, I guess. And the first thing I always start out with my coaching clients is like mindset stuff, finding your why that stuff that’s like, more personal work. Because it’s important, it’s important to address that first. And after I was done working with them. They admitted to me, they say Kirinda, after your first coaching call, we hung up the Zoom call, we called each other on the phone, and we were like this girl’s insane. Family, we hired her to help her with our business. This has nothing to do with our business. But we’ve already paid her money. So I guess we’re just gonna keep going back. We’ll see what happens. And they were like, We are so glad that we actually just stuck through it and did it. Because in one of the girls, I think she said, like what you said, I realized that in order to grow my business, I had to grow as a person. And I was trying so hard to just like focus on the business, and ignore myself thinking that I would sort it out on my end. But in all reality, I had to deal with myself first. And I think that’s so so important. Because like our businesses are a life honestly. And there’s a lot of intertwining things that happen that may or may not be healthy or great all the time. But it is what it is, you know?
Dan Moyer
Yeah, I was thinking of a client I had last week, who when we got into it, I was like, alright, we’ll, you know, like you’re saying you’re burnt out, you’re tired. Like you can’t, you’re not sure like how much money you’re making. Or if you need, you know, if you’re, you’re hitting all your bills, but like you don’t know how many weddings you actually need to know how many sessions you actually need. And I said, like, you know, when was last time we had a weekend off for yourself. And she’s like, well, I did have this date. And I’m like, Okay, let’s go back through and count. She’s like, well, I did set off the state. And then we started looking back through the calendar was like, Oh, I had these dates blocked out, but actually didn’t take them for myself. I ended up having to edit all day or whatever. It’s like we think isn’t one of those things. We think we’re doing more for ourselves than we actually are. But then when you look back, it’s like, holy crap. I haven’t had like, some time to do something that I love some time to work on myself for months. Nobody can work like that. Yeah,
Karinda Kinsler
and I think like, I think in the photography industry, there’s this like, staying up all night editing photos, like, I don’t know if it’s like still there as much as they used to be. But like when I was early on in my business, everybody stayed up all night long editing their pictures. And it’s like, why? Like, why do we think this is okay? And something I like to ask people is like, if this was your job, and you had a boss and you weren’t getting a paycheck, would you do the same stuff that you’re actually doing in your business and they’re like Oh, heck no, I wouldn’t have recourse if this was my job. Like, why are you treating in any different can? Why
Dan Moyer
do we do that is because we think the business is our baby that we need to like, do all the stuff all the time, and that there’s value in staying up and burning the candle at both ends.
Karinda Kinsler
And I think like, some of it, too, is like, we are artists, you know, photographers tend to have that artists heart. And they tend to want to do things that feel good when they feel good. And I think that like, in order to build a really profitable business, you have to kind of put on your big kid panties. And you have to like being a business owner, and not just being like, well, I don’t want to have a schedule, I don’t want to have like, set time, so they sit down and work. Now that doesn’t mean you can’t like go get coffee at 10 o’clock in the morning because you feel like it. But it means that you need to have some sort of normalcy like a real business. And I like to say that like most photographers don’t treat their business like a CEO of a business treats their business. And I think that if you start to look at it from that perspective, that it really changes the way you’re doing things. But a lot of this goes back to the mindset stuff, too. Because what why do you think it’s okay to stay up late at night? Why do you think it’s okay not to value your time? Why do you think you have to spend five hours obsessing over an image in Photoshop? Those are all mindset things that are coming up there, right? And it gets dirty. And it gets messy when you start saying like, okay, there’s a reason these things are happening. There’s a reason why I feel so like, hard against actually having a schedule when I’m sitting in my office working. Like, where’s this coming from? What is happening, and you have to deal with that. And it’s not always going to be easy, and it’s not always going to be fun. And that’s sometimes when your business coach becomes like your therapist. Dan, you probably don’t cry with your coaching clients like I do. But sometimes there’s tears shed on But whoa, whoa,
Dan Moyer
whoa, whoa, yes, I am. I am an extreme empath. I have even more so now with the fact that I have got like three kiddos and all that stuff, like my wife and I cried this morning, because we were like, she has been sick the last couple of days. And I’ve been like, she’s in the corporate world. So no flexibility. And I’ve just there’s been an extra like, bid on me. We’re like, trying to let her sleep more and all that stuff. And we’re both through like at wit’s end. And then we had like, a come to Jesus moment together. Were you out this? Yeah. So yes, I do.
Karinda Kinsler
So I feel like you know, that’s like, where, like Business is business. But it isn’t just business. It’s life. And it’s people. And it’s dealing with people and like, as the and I would say, like this, since you’ve said that. I think it’s important to have like a business coach in your life that cares about you as a person. They don’t just care about the numbers, they’re going to be there to be like, Hey, we got to deal with you what’s going on? Something isn’t right. What’s going on? And I think that’s really, really important on this journey. Yeah,
Dan Moyer
two things that I’m thinking of one is like, that’s the that’s one of the only issues that I have in the photography space about the term coach, is that it seems like like I was coaching photographers for the last several years, and I realized that most of my discussions ended up sort of veering into the life side of things because it I mean, if anybody else out there is like me, which I’m assuming that’s probably most people, it’s like, if you have an argument with your spouse, or your kids or like way, you know, they’re just breathing down your neck and you have no patience. How how do we think that’s going to affect how we’re trying to manage our business and be productive that day and whatever and so you end up looking more at the the personal the life side of things than like let’s just grow our business let’s hit six figures and like you know, all that stuff. Surely those are great goals. But there’s also this like, house I want to live life to let me put work inside of my life, the work just being my whole life. Have you heard of Parkinson’s Law? You know what this is your heard of this? No, I don’t. Okay. I forget what the example was or what you were talking about just a minute ago that made me think of it, but it’s like when when you don’t give yourself enough Oh, it was the example you gave of your the two people who you were working with where you were like not talking just about the business in their first in your first interaction with them. And me writing me this thing called Parkinson’s Law where Parkinson’s Law basically says the like work expands to fill the time allotted to complete the work. So like if you have like, say you’ve got a wedding that you’re editing or something and it’s like I’ve got up against the wire. I’ve got five hours at this wedding. Guess how long it takes you that the wedding five hours or if you say your turnaround time is 60 weeks, guess how long it takes you to edit the wedding 60 weeks? I think so many photographers work this way, where they give themselves the leftovers of their time. That’s why they’re working overnight. That’s why they’re whatever because like, they don’t have any boundaries set up. So during the day they can get work done and and be with their family or their significant other or whatever it is outside of that time. So they just use time overnight when their family members and reverse sleeping. And so Parkinson’s Law basically like, flips that on its side and says like, give yourself specific parameters to do this work. And then outside of that it’s your family time or your friend time or you time.
Karinda Kinsler
Yes, I do know what you’re talking about. Once you started explaining, I was like, Yes, I know that. You got it. Yeah, I think that’s so true. And I think like, you know, and I’ll just say like, there are gonna be seasons where you’re busy. I have a season where I am, I work like a dog, I’m not gonna lie, I work really hard, mid March, honestly, through May,
Dan Moyer
is this like the four week thing that you were telling me about? A
Karinda Kinsler
four week long event where I do like 150 sessions, and then I come off of that event, I go to California and photograph a dance studio with like, 1000 kids, wow, then I come home, processed those images, and then I go back to photograph the recital two weeks later. So I have a season. That’s crazy. But to be honest with you, after that season’s over, I like take a lot of time off, I don’t work a whole lot. After that, like July like June, July, August, I don’t really do anything. Because I work really hard those few months. And then I enjoy life a lot for the next few months. So like give yourself grace, give yourself permission to know that like it’s okay, sometimes have those seasons. But take purposeful time for yourself after that season. Because like sometimes, you know, it’s just spring is crazy or falls crazy. But like, take a busy month and then take a dead month and just enjoy your debt month. And be okay with that. Yeah, heck
Dan Moyer
yeah, I’m gonna go back to all of the, you know, money mindset stuff that we’re talking about. And I know that you’ve been coaching a lot of different photographers on this. I’m just wondering, like, what are the things that you come up against? When you’re, you know, working with new photographers? What are the things that you sort of see most where people are just like, really in the riding the struggle bus when it comes to their finances? Yeah.
Karinda Kinsler
So the first and most important part of a business is obviously finances like we’re in this to make money, hopefully, like, it’s not really a business if you’re not making money. And so the first part of running a business is sitting down and setting your prices and saying, How much money do I want to make in my pocket? That’s always my first question I asked. And the answers I get to this question, I’m sure you’ve heard the same thing. It’s like, Oh, I’d love to make like, Oh, $20,000. And I’m like, really? Like, really? Is that really what you want to make? Well, I mean, that would be nice. And I’m like, hold on, let’s back up. We living your life, doing the things paying your bills, taking your family on vacations, how much money do you want to make? And just the first question that you have to ask yourself as a business owner to plan your entire business, which is how much money do I want to make? There’s so much resistance to answering that with honest truth. There’s so much fear around saying like, yeah, I love to bring it up. I’d love to put $100,000 in my pocket. There’s so much resistance, just go out there and be like, Yeah, I want to make a lot of money. And that’s cool. People are so scared, and they need permission to do that. And if you’re sitting there and you’re thinking like, Okay, I want to start a business, and you’re in the headspace of, I’d like to make $30,000 a year, which if that is you, and that’s genuinely where you’re at, there’s nothing wrong with that. But make sure that’s a real accurate number that actually allows you to live. I don’t know the number off the top of my head, but you can research like, the average income for happiness in America is way higher than $30,000 a year. I think it’s, I’m not gonna say a number because I don’t want to misquote. Much higher than that. But there’s like some number that research has shown, you know, if you can’t even answer that simple question and come up with a good number that actually allows you long term sustainability in your business, then you’re gonna have to look at like, why am I having such a hard time even just dealing with how much money I want to make? That should be an easy question to answer. And I would say that’s kind of the first piece of resistance that I see and mindset issues and like, insecurities on charging money is just right there with that first question. And if you’re sitting there and you’re struggling with this question, I’ll kind of give you a tip to think about, think about running your business. 1015 years down the road. Not tomorrow, not next year, not two or three years down the road. Think like 1015 years down the road, you’re doing all the things you want to do. You’re living your life. Whatever that looks like for you really sit down and say how much money does it cost me to live? How much is my house payment, my car payment, my vacation for my family? Write down all the numbers and like, be selfish. Like be a little bit greedy with it. And you know, I’ll say like, this is the time where it’s okay to like, be greedy and think like, man, wouldn’t it be cool if I could like buy a boat or something? Wouldn’t it be cool if we could go to Disney twice a year? Because I’m a Disney addicts? Like, just go for it. Okay, like, don’t think about what are people going to think if they see me doing these things? Because I think that’s another mindset thing that comes in is like, when you start to think about making money, you think, what are other people going to think. And so give yourself permission to think really big, give yourself permission to dream big to have wild, crazy dreams, even if they seem unrealistic. And even if it seems like something you wouldn’t ever be able to do. And then as you continue to plan your business, don’t plan for next year, plan for that 15 years down the road, that seems so crazy and out there. But if you plan for it, you’re gonna be real surprised, because you’re gonna get there so much faster.
Dan Moyer
I love that. I love that. Like, it’s like a future budget. I also like that you have this long term, rather than just like, Okay, this is what next year is because I mean, I’m not even sure that most people think about what next year is. But I think, like, I think having like this very long goal of like, this is what I want my life to look like. And then working towards, that can happen much quicker. But I think you’re talking around something even bigger here with this first question, which is like, How much money do I want to make? And people answer like very low. And it’s got to be wrapped up in impostor syndrome. And, and like, this is how I’m, this is how much I think I’m worth, or am I even worth anything? So it’s like, this is not just about money. This goes back to the mindset thing, which I feel like, you know, that’s why we’re on this podcast talking about money mindset. But you know, you have to move outside of just the numbers to talk about this. So how do you start coaching people through this space of oh, I don’t even feel like I’m worth 20,000. What’s the next? What’s the move after that? What do you say to that person?
Karinda Kinsler
Yeah. So there’s this really cool exercise I like to do when we start talking about this, before we even talk about how much money do I want to make in my pocket? It helps people pride themselves for answering this question in the right way. And so I love to do this, like I call it a dream big visualization where essentially, you sit down and you imagine like, what does life look like when I finally made it, and giving yourself permission to sit down and visualize like, Okay, this is what life looks like, when I finally made it. This is who’s around me, this is what my business looks like, this is what my family looks like, this is what my car, my house, my clothes, how I present myself all these things. And I think that doing that visualization first is really powerful and cool, because it gets people in the right space to be like, Oh, maybe there is more out there for me. And, and also like, I can see myself in that place. So like, why not work towards those goals? Why not be like, Heck, yeah, let’s go for it. So that’s actually one of the biggest tools that I use. It’s just a really quick visualization practice. And it’s really neat. I’ve been on a virtual summit before, and I was supposed to be teaching on making money. And I started out and I was like, we’re gonna do this visualization. First. Everybody’s faces just like, oh, and I was like, just just hanging out with me, we’re gonna do this. And we finished and everyone’s like, there’s like people sitting there crying, everyone’s like, writing a million dollars now, or they’re no book. And then we went in to talk about making a lot of money in selling big, expensive Walmart. And all of a sudden, people were like, Heck, yeah, I can see myself doing this. Because they’ve taken that time to feel and see in their head, the bigger potential of their business, which I think a lot of times, we’re just so busy, that we don’t take the time to actually say, like, oh, there’s a bigger picture here. And also, in the same fact of, when you do those types of practices, especially before you go into pricing, and talking about pricing, which is scary, you’re gonna find that you’re a lot more willing to do the big scary thing. And you’re also going to find that you’re, you actually have to answer what you need to do in your own self. If you just sit there and listen long enough, like you actually know that you need to go raise your prices and set them where they need to be. And when you do that visualization practice, you’re like, Okay, what are you telling yourself, you’re telling yourself to go raise your prices, because that’s what you need to do. Don’t be so scared to do it. And I think that those things are really powerful in this whole process. And that’s a bit of the woowoo again, but it’s super important.
Dan Moyer
It’s real talk though, because I’m thinking back like maybe it’s got to be 2013 10 years ago. This guy Joe I knew who was in it for a little bit longer. He did a lot of weddings in New York, but he’s, you know, lived where I was at in the Lehigh Valley. And at that time, I think I was like, like, all in charging like 4800 bucks for a wedding like and I was like, second shooter album files, like all the things and he, I was excited because I got to give him over referral, right? This couple came to me, I wasn’t able to Hey, man, here’s this referral, that couple turned around and booked him for like nine grand. And so I’m saying This couple was coming to me has the potential to be able to spend $9,000, or whatever it was. And I’m 4800 bucks for all these things. And I think so much of it is like this, our brain getting in our way. And like I keep every time I hear he’s like, keep asking, like questions. Well, you got to have like your brain set in Well, you got to have your marketing set in place. And sometimes it’s just a matter of like, raising your prices, and just seeing what happens, right? Like, raise your prices, and then test it out for the next 10 inquiries. And then if like you don’t book any, then maybe go back and look at your experience or something like that, and see if you need to shore things up or your marketing or your brand or whatever it is. But just try, right? Is that what I’m hearing?
Karinda Kinsler
Yeah, 100% It’s funny, you say that it makes me think of when I used to shoot weddings, I went through this booking wall where I was not booking any weddings. And one of my good friends, she said, What’s your pricing like Kirinda. And I said, Well, I’m priced just like everyone else. And she goes, that’s your problem, raise your prices. Literally, I raised my prices, and all of a sudden, I became the most expensive and the bookings for them. And I was like, as simple as that really, like, that’s all I needed to do was just raise my prices. It wasn’t like, panic and lower my prices, the answer was actually to be hired to be different. And raising my prices was a super simple way to be different than everyone else. And I would have never thought about it unless my friend was like Crenna. Just do it. See what happens.
Dan Moyer
All right, I want to touch on this briefly. Because I feel like there’s some people out there who would be like upset if I didn’t? What, what do you think are sort of the bare minimum touch points of if you’re going to be a $10,000? Portrait Photographer, $10,000 wedding photographer, there’s got to be some experience to back it up, right? And my brain automatically goes to well, if I’m going to hire a 10,000, or if I’m, you know, if there’s if there’s a couple out there who is a $10,000? Couple, what are they going to expect of this experience? That’s the first question I would ask myself, but what do you think? Yeah, so
Karinda Kinsler
I am actually a big believer in the fact that client experience is not gifts, welcome guides, emails, doing all these things. I am a very big believer in the client experience that gets them to spend a lot of money is about preparing them for the proper to preparing the city, or the possibility. It’s about just having conversations with them, and making sure that they feel taken care of. And I honestly think like I don’t send emails, I don’t have prep guides, I don’t have a price list. I don’t do any of those things. I literally have a call when someone inquires a planning call to plan their session, I show up at their session, I shoot their session, and I hop on a zoom call afterwards. My client experience is very simple, I don’t do extra stuff. It’s not extra fluffy. But what it is all 100% geared towards is getting them to the sale, and getting them to the point where when we get to the reveal, they know they’re gonna spend money, they probably already know what they’re gonna buy if I’ve done my job. And like, it’s no big deal anymore. So I think it’s been about having a lot of really bad experiences in the early years where you had people like totally unprepared and literally I in the marketing world and one of the statistic it’s like the average salesperson has to ask for the sale eight times to get to a yes. So I’ve kind of taken that same thing in my process. And I make sure that I’m at least talking about the process and preparing them for the sale at least eight times. In all reality, it’s more like 12 times. Because if I miss a step or two, it’s, you know, there’s some things to fall back on. But really every step along the way, it’s just preparing them for the sale. It’s not extra fluffy. It’s nothing glamorous. I shoot on location, I don’t have hair and makeup. I don’t bring in clients to my studio. I literally keep it bare bones. And I think that in today’s world, like, there’s so much automation, there’s so many emails, there’s so many things that people are expected to just get the information and read it themselves. And so I’ve tried to go back to like old school and be like, Hey, I’m not going to do those things. I’m just going to talk to you if you need something call me text me no big deal. And I hardly ever email my clients anymore actually call them when I text them now which in the early degree yours that was like, Heck no, don’t text your wedding clients, they’ll become nightmares. I love texting my clients also like I think now that my clients spend so much money with me. I think that they respect me in a different way than when I was cheaper and they were texting me at midnight. Right? It’s a different vibe with my clients. So, yeah,
Dan Moyer
I love texting my clients, I think I feel like you, the biggest thing that I’m hearing is that you just deliver on what you say you’re gonna do. Like that’s it. And that’s, that’s good customer experience. That’s enough good customer experience now that like you set yourself apart, because many times we’re like, you know, good customer service is having to follow up just once to get an email or, you know, whatever. And I’m talking about just big massive companies, but like, it feels like there’s so much poor customer service that you see people going on Facebook to get a response from this or that person. But yeah, that’s tricky. Yeah.
Karinda Kinsler
And that’s not to say, like, I saw my crazy I had my first crazy client a long time this week. So like, it still happens, like I and then the cool part, though, is like years ago, when I had things happen that were crazy. I would like sit there and I’d freak out. And I’d be like, Oh, my gosh, I messed up somewhere. Now I’m like, You know what, I did my job, I had all the best points. I did what I should have done. If they didn’t read or if they didn’t listen to anything. I said, that’s on them, not on me. And like, I can go to sleep at night and not have a panic attack and not like lay awake at night and be like, Oh my gosh, something’s gonna happen. So it’s like a different feeling. I think when you know that your system and your process is so good and solid, that you’re like, okay, cool. It’s not on me. It’s
Dan Moyer
that’s, that’s very self aware, to be able to say like, I did my best I did my job. I’m showing up. I’m doing the same experience for everybody else. And if it did not work for this person, then that’s on them. Yeah.
Karinda Kinsler
And I get a couple of email reminders for like the reveal. And I even went back and check the emails. I was like, Did I miss something up in these emails? Did I accidentally go delete the email that was supposed to go out? Like, what happened? I like went back through I read through all the emails, I went through all the touch points. I was like, Okay, we’re good. Everything was right, everything where he was supposed to? I can sleep easy. So
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. Okay, I’m gonna give you one final big last question. The one piece of advice, right? For somebody out there who’s like, they’re just on that fence sort of lukewarm about all the things right? They’re not sure if their mate can make enough money. They don’t know how many weddings they need, or how many sessions they need. What’s like, the thing that you say to that person,
Karinda Kinsler
I would say, learn business. Honestly, like that’s what this boils down to is that so many photographers take so much time learning business, that they never actually, did I say that wrong? I think he meant to say learn photography. photographers take so much time learning photography, that they don’t learn business. And all of a sudden, they’re sitting there, like, how many weddings do I need? How much money do I need to make? Where’s my money? And then the your tax comes? And you’re like, Wait, did I make anything? Where’s all that money I made? Where did it go? And why did my clients spend money? And why are her clients spinning double what mine are. And I will say that it boils down to lack of business knowledge. And a big thing that has been really helpful for me is understanding the psychology of how our clients make decisions, the psychology of why somebody would spend more money with me than they would spend with my neighbor down the street. Or why someone would spend five or $6,000 on the canvas when they could go to Walgreens and spend $100, right. It’s all like a psychological game, which kind of sounds weird. But it is like we understand how our clients make decisions. And understanding that will allow us to build a business that works and feels good to us. And I’ll also say like, if you’re out there, and you’re trying to build your business, and you just feel like nothing is working. Chances are it’s because you’re trying to take cookie cutter advice, and just copy and paste it into your own business. And then that doesn’t work, either. It’s really important to understand the advice and to say, like, okay, this person teaches it this way, or this person said, I should do it this way. Does this fit me? Does this fit my business? Does it feel good? And how do I make it feel good, because the script is never going to work for you. Unless it’s your script. And you understand it? The best script in the world, I can give you my script, I couldn’t give you know, you my script and say here, do an info call with my script, you would fumble through it and you’d sound like an idiot. And I think that that’s where a lot of like misconceptions that come in businesses like that you can just copy and paste the system, put it into play, and it’s gonna make sense that it’s going to work. And that is not the case at all in this business.
Dan Moyer
So is it just a matter of like getting, getting some knowledge, getting business knowledge and just trying stuff and just keep trying and trying and not being afraid of failure and keep trying again, and then looking at what actually works and then implementing more of that and just building on top of it. Yeah,
Karinda Kinsler
exactly. And it’s like also saying that Like, okay, there’s this advice I was given. Why are they telling me this? Like, why is this something they’re saying is so valuable? Why are they saying this works? And then saying is this going to work for me? Because like, I used to be a workshop course a Holic, I went to all the things and I come home, burned down my business, replace it with whoever’s business I just learned from, because that’s what they told me to do. And that is not a good idea. You know, find somebody in your corner, that’s going to, if you’re going to get the help avoid the cookie cutter help find somebody who’s going to take the time to say, here are your options. Here’s the reason why, based on who you are as a person, I think this is going to be best for you, but maybe you should try these other things do and that’s gonna make a huge, huge difference. So I would say just avoid the cookie cutter. That’s the biggest thing. If it feels cookie cutter, it is not going to work.
Dan Moyer
Heck, yeah, that is lovely, beautiful advice. Okay, that was a great spot to finish up on. Final ways that people can learn more about you can follow along can work with you all that stuff. Give me the social deets.
Karinda Kinsler
Yes, so on Instagram where mastermind money. We have a podcast called mindset and Money Mastery for photographers. And we also have some really amazing things coming down the pipeline in the coming months. We have equine photographer summit that we’re going to be hosting. And we also have a really awesome new program geared towards finding helping people find magic in their business called your magic year that’s going to be a year long thing that we’re just kicking off right now. I was taking a look at that, that looks really cool. If you like purple and unicorns and mindset is the place to be Cringer this
Dan Moyer
was very lovely. And I’m very, I feel I like a strong kinship because I feel like so much of what you talked about today is things that are not talked about enough that I just did just like speak close to like my soul about like just taking care of yourself and making sure that you know you’re good and then also just knowing what works for you rather than just taking somebody’s like one cookie cutter approach and saying this is kind of work. Just like okay, this is some advice and then let me see if it works for me if it doesn’t being okay with getting rid of it and whenever and I just feel a very strong kinship with you. So I’m thankful for all of your knowledge and advice and thoughtfulness and sharing it all today.
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