Something so many creative entrepreneurs struggle with is getting organized. Today I am so excited to be speaking with automation and systems guru, Colie James, about how she helps entrepreneurs become more organized in their systems and gain their time and freedom back. Plus, she is sharing all about the number one time drain that entrepreneurs must deal with.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host, Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES:
Get to know Colie James (3:04)
Colie’s VIP Days (7:33)
Beginning to become systemized (8:45)
Choosing the right CRM (16:04)
Should video be a part of your automation process? (22:11)
You have to like me as a person, too (24:24)
How do you automate rapport? (29:00)
Can you send too many emails? (35:46)
How photographers can use schedulers and better manage their time (39:24)
The impact that systemization can make in your business (50:36)
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
CRM Comparison Guide for Photographers
CONNECT WITH COLIE JAMES
Website coliejamesphotography.com / coliejames.com
Instagram @coliejames
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Thank you!
-Dan
Review the Transcript:
Dan Moyer
Hey photographer friends. Welcome to the focus photographers podcast where photographers gather. I’m your host, Dan Moyer. And before I jump into today’s episode all about automation and systemization, and all the “ation” variations that I can think of, let me tell you first about the focus five newsletter. It is a five minute weekly newsletter that I send out every single Thursday. And it covers everything from relatable stories that I have, from the past 1315 years worth of being a wedding photographer to small business tips to profitability to inspiration and hype for your wedding this coming weekend. If you go to focus photographers.com/newsletter, you can download there, I’m not going to spam, you can unsubscribe anytime you want. But the goal is is we’re already in our emails all the time anyway. And as somebody who’s trying to put my phone down just a little bit more to spend a little more time with my family and that kind of thing. I’m trying to move a little bit more and spend a little more time in email and and to reach all of you there and give you some information that is easily accessible that you can easily archive and come back to later rather than the endless scroll. So today’s episode, though, is so good. Every single second of this podcast is chock full of information and things that you’re going to be wanting to write down to change in your business to make you more sustainable, make you more focus, give you some time back. So I’m really thankful that Colie James came on today and talk about Systemising and automations and gave me an end you some really low hanging fruit to do in your business all the way up through things you can really do to get nitty gritty and get some time back. So please welcome without further ado, Colie James.
Dan Moyer
All right, Colie James, I am absolutely thrilled that you’re here, one, because you I feel like are an expert in something that my brain is not. And I think a lot of creatives are not, which is like organizing and structure and streamlining things. And I’m so excited to pick your brain today. So thanks for coming here and being on this podcast.
Colie James
Thank you for having me, Daniel. I’m excited. I think of any opportunity to talk about systems specifically for photographers. Amazing, because I know it’s hard. I know, it’s hard, but it’s easy in my brain. And so my professor, part of myself just loves to make it easily digestible for anybody.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that’s that is the fact that you say that it’s easy for you to like, create structure and organization. That is amazing. And I feel like that is the secret to longevity in a business. Like in the first couple years, I came from another studio that my boss was very, very right brained, like he was all about systems and structure. And when I came into my own business, I said, Alright, this is what I need to do. I need to create a system for everything. So I can have this free, creative mind. But I’m still learning so much. So enough about me, can you as we as we start getting into all this stuff. Before we get into that, can you tell me a little bit about you and your story and how you’ve kind of got to where you aren’t today.
Colie James
Okay, so I’m Colie James, I am a documentary family photographer turned automation and systems guru. I’m based in Colorado, which is as amazing and beautiful. As you’ve heard. I live with my husband of 21 years being married, I know I should get a medal and my 12 year old daughter who is full of sass, but we live in Colorado. And about two years ago, I stopped I was on someone’s podcast, actually, I was on the this can’t be that hard podcast. And on him. He was asking me about systems. And almost immediately when I got off, I was like, I should probably do this. And so I started creating a course. And then I eventually moved to VIP days for them. So like now I soak up as much systems as I can for everybody and anybody.
Unknown Speaker
So how did you make that transition from like, Okay, I’m a documentary family photographer to Okay, now I decided I’m going to create like a business around automation and streamlining and all that. What was that transition?
Colie James
Like? Oh, it’s kind of funny. So I started my business back in 2012. And before I was a photographer, I was a professor, college professor of math and statistics for 10 years before I took off two and a half years to kind of have my daughter be home with my daughter. And we live in Colorado. And I was like, I don’t want to teach anymore. So I was like, What am I going to do? So I mean, I thought of everything that was like entrepreneurial. I thought about opening a daycare, I thought about getting a real estate license. Clearly I didn’t want to go back to teaching, but I kind of just landed on photography. But almost immediately I started mentoring other photographers, which I know sounds really crazy. Like someone opens a business and then they teach other people how to do it. I did it and when people would be like, but you’ve been in business for less than a year. I’m like yeah, Have it I’ve been teaching people for 10, I was like, the teaching feels way more natural than the photography. So that was how I got into the realm of education for photographers. And as I was teaching other people how to do in home sessions, how to get better at using your gear, I naturally started teaching them how to be better business owners how to make sure that your pricing was profitable, how to make sure that your website was converting. And when I landed on a CRM in 2016, I started making everybody else get a CRM. And so I had been helping my own students with their CRM setups for about three years before I started, you know, thinking, Oh, but maybe I should just, you know, have these systems setups for like, everyone. And so that was really the transition that I did, it wasn’t really a transition of starting to help people with them. It was help people who haven’t already paid me a large amount of money to mentor them and photography.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that I feel like that is just the thing that so many photographers struggle with one, the structure of organizing and streamlining and creating, like a repeatable process, but to just managing themselves, like the amount of posts that I see from photographers who are like, I’m drowning, and editing, I’m eight weeks behind I am so I have so many emails. And I feel like that’s why like, the fact that you have this like math logistical brain is so good, and that you also have this creative side, because I think you can maybe empathize with creatives, but also say no, no, like, Listen, this is how you can do it and love that.
Colie James
Because, you know, I think we all get stuck in what we want to do. So it is not uncommon for someone to come to me for a VIP day. And on their strategy day, they’re telling me about all the things that they currently do. And I’m like, Yeah, but you shouldn’t do that going forward. And they’re like, No, it’s really been working for me. And I’m like, Yeah, but if we just do it in this way, you are going to save so much time, which is either going to allow you to make more money, or it’s going to allow you to get more clients and just work you know, or spend time with your family. I mean, time is a commodity, that is not unlimited. So I love that my job is now to help people get more of their time back, I don’t care what you do at that time. If you grow your business, if you spend it with your family, if you take lavish vacations, whatever it is, I just want everybody to get more time, because we have all seen it as entrepreneurs, like people leave their nine to five, so to say, and then they work 24/7 in their business. And it just it’s not sustainable. It is the quickest road to burnout that I can think of. And so whatever I can do to help people avoid that is just, yeah, it’s amazing. Real quick, what’s the what’s the VIP day, so. So originally, like, you know, when you hire somebody for a website, and you know, you go back and forth, and you give them the information, and it takes like a month or two and then they give you your website. So as I have gotten older, I have realized my brain can’t handle working with someone that long. Like I’ll forget something, you know, the scope of the project just gets bigger and bigger. So a VIP day is a repeatable process or a deliverable that you can give a client each and every time after working with them for a single day. So I actually set dubsado up in a single day, like there’s pre work, and there’s support after, but like for one or two days, depending on how big your setup is, I am only working on your business. This is not special to me, there are lots of VIP days, like we were talking about copywriting before, when I was writing my sales page for this $37 product that absolutely flopped. I hired a copywriter for a VIP day so that she could write it for me. So I am one of those people that if you give me the option of free shipping in seven to 10 days, or pay $25 to get it tomorrow, I pay the $25 to get it tomorrow each and every time. So it’s like that version of getting help for your business.
Unknown Speaker
Interesting. So as we’re like talking about this, my whole audience is photographers. And we’re all we’re saying before, it’s like my, my brain does not work in the analytical space. And the reason why we’re talking is because I this year is like my automation year, right? I’ve got three kiddos I’ve got, you know, a wife who wants to see me more. And I also want to spend more time with my family as well. So I’m doing lots of things like scaling back, like, I know what burnout looks like, I know what frustrated you know, I’ve been in business for almost 15 years, 13 years full time as a wedding photographer. And um, I’ve seen the one side of the pendulum of burnout and frustration and being tired all the time. And so I’m letting the pendulum swing way far back in the other direction, right, accepting less weddings and just seeing what I can do with the extra time. But that’s not an option for everybody. And I guess what I’m really talking through here is as you start working with photographers, I think it’s outside the norm of a lot of creatives to manage themselves, like I’ve said before, so when you start working with somebody, how do you go about laying out that workflow for them to be systemized and organized and repeatable? How do you approach that
Colie James
for a while I was approaching it by just giving them my system because I’ve been in business For 10 years, I think that since I’ve had a CRM, I have like the signature system that I love that I think gives all of the clients all the touch points. But as I’ve started doing more and more VIP days, I started letting people just basically brain dump. So we have a call, you tell me all of the communications that you want to send your client, all of the information that you think it’s important that they have before you actually do your session, how you collect your money, whether or not you know, you’ve ever been at a job and realize that you didn’t do something like I want you to tell me all of those things. And then we craft a system that is very automated, its automated as you will possibly let me so I’ll talk about that in a little while. But like I tell people, like I’ll put approval buttons on anything that you want. But my goal is within 60 days, I want you to remove the approval buttons, and these things should just be going out. Because one of the things that photographers struggle with is, but what if I send an email to the wrong person? What if it sends it prematurely like people have a very real phobia of, you know, seeming like they’re dumb in the eyes of their clients? Whereas I mean, we’re all we’re all getting emails from people that we buy from not not maybe entrepreneurs, but like companies, like we’re getting a coupon code that we shouldn’t have gotten, and then they’re sending us an apology letter. So it’s really not a big deal. But like, I try to help people overcome that phobia by saying, listen, like, I can totally let you put your eyes on every single thing. But just the fact that we’re laying out, every single thing that you want to happen is going to give your client a more consistent experience, it’s going to help you keep track of things, even if they’re not automated. But once you get the hang of it, I want you to take the approval buttons off so that it is actually sent automatically, because we do so many things like session prep, like I’m in like, Okay, you’re a wedding photographer, for example. I don’t shoot weddings, but I’ve set up quite a few. So you want to get the wedding details, you want to get to know them, you want to schedule the engagement, you want to tell them thank you, you want to send them a sneak peek, almost all of that can be automated. The only thing that I mentioned that can’t be automated is the sneak peek. Because at some point, you have to upload the images or send them in an email. So that email needs your eyes. But everything else I mentioned 100% be automated. I feel like
Unknown Speaker
we’re hovering around an idea of this, but like what was you start like looking at systems and stuff? What’s like the low hanging fruit that people? Yeah, communication, okay,
Colie James
candy, emails, canned emails are the low hanging fruit. And anybody who is listening to this podcast, please schedule one hour on your calendar immediately to sit down and write emails that you send every single client in the booking process, they can be shored, you can add things to them. So like the one thing that I tell people is a canned email doesn’t mean that’s how it has to be sent. Like I have emails that I’ve written that are 80% Done. And when I talk to a client, I fill in the extra 20%. So like if I know that they have other children, or I know that their child is coming in July on the July baby, I mean, we can all bond over the fact that Leo’s are a special breed. Okay. So like I will add things like that to the email to where it feels really customized to my client, they don’t know that 80% of that email was sitting there waiting for me to just add in a special touch like something. And most of the time, I’m telling people to create urgency with that special touch. So if they told you that, you know, they’re having a baby in three weeks, you need to make sure that they know Hey, that baby could come any day. Now let’s go ahead and schedule your newborn session. Let’s check that off of your very long to do list. Because when you bring the baby home, it’s all of a sudden going to be two months later. And you’re gonna be like, Oh my gosh, where did that time go? Yeah. So you know, as much as you can look at the emails that you’ve sent your last five clients, put them in a Google Doc. And just figure out which parts of those emails is something that you need to tell everyone and leave yourself space, if you actually need to add something custom. After you’ve talked to them after you’ve read their submission form, whatever it is, you have this time with an approval button to just add in that little bit. And then hit approve, and then you’ve got a mostly automated, but it feels highly customized an email that your client is getting
Unknown Speaker
interesting. So I don’t use dub Sado. Although like, I feel like everybody’s talking about it. And I mean, so I feel like I’m missing out on something now, but that’s neither here nor there. So is that like, is the Approval button almost like a creates a draft? And then like, it tells you that morning, okay, you need to check this email out. And
Colie James
no, but before I had a CRM, so I’ll just tell you, I haven’t always been dubsado. I started in 17 hats. When I started to hit up on like, what I thought were, I wanted more design capabilities. I went over to top and one more automations I went over to tavae I got the automations it still wasn’t pretty. So then I got to dubsado which is like a middle ground between excellent design, and really good automations. So I’ve had a path. I mean, I haven’t just had one CRM, but what I will say about all of those CRMs As they all offer workflows, and so what you would do is you would write all the canned template emails in a separate section. And then when you’re building your workflow, you’re basically saying, hey, if this person fills out my lead capture, and they say, I’m interested in a family session, send them this email. And that email is specific to family photography, then I have a different workflow that says, if they tell me they want a newborn session on the contact form, it automatically sends them something about having a baby like that is a very customized feel. Instead of them getting an automatic, I’ve received your response you will hear for me and 24 to 48 hours. Thank you for your interest in Kohli James, like, can you hear how dull that sounds that I’m reading. So that’s all that’s all it takes at you write the emails, and then you just plug them into the workflow. And when the workflow starts inside of the clients project, the email is sitting there and it either goes, or if it has an approval button, like you said, it is like a draft. So you can click edit, you can put whatever you want, and then you can hit approve.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, so I want to go back to what you said about your journey kind of through different CRMs. Right, because obviously, if you move from one to another, that means that it, it didn’t do exactly what you wanted, or whatever. And so I guess, you know, I’ve been with Tommy for a very long time, but I’m not. I’m not sponsored by anybody. Because like, there’s always something that’s coming out that I feel like fits my needs, right? So I guess what I’m wondering is if if somebody is either brand new, or they’re trying to look around for something else, what would you say to them as they start shopping around? And and like, how do you even choose the CRM and all that stuff,
Colie James
which gets to brought me up, we didn’t discuss freebies, but I will send you my link for my CRM comparison guide for photographers Yeah, shows you all of the different features that each of them have. And I will say you said your target user, I was in love with Tommy, I don’t want anybody listening to think that Tommy had any real deficits. In fact, for automations, Tommy blows dubsado out of the water, with their reporting, it blows dubsado out of the water, but as a filmmaker, so this is where my niche really comes into play. As a filmmaker, it is very important to me to show everyone a film so that I can get them to buy a film. You couldn’t show them films and TV for a very long time. Now you can do that really tiny video on like their proposal. But like in dubsado, they can be fullscreen, like you can do, you can do all kinds of things with videos and dubsado. You can put them inside your proposals and your questionnaires. Like I use them as intro videos, not only to show my clients, actual client films, but I’ll be like, thank you so much for booking me like this is what the experience is going to be like. And I can put that video anywhere that I want watch. Yeah, so I mean, that is what brought me to dubsado point blank End of story, it was the ability to put videos onto a proposal. But Tavi. I mean, you can trigger any automation that you want to target, it is amazing. And at the end of December, at the end of 2021 into 2022, I had a tavae setup where I moved someone from Taveta dubsado. And when I exported their client file, I almost cried because I had forgotten how amazing it was with reporting. So on this con this client file, it not only had the clients first name, last name, email, you know all those details. It had a column for the last time that they had booked a session, it had column for lifetime value. No other CRM has that. So I do want to say I’ve got the guide, and Daniel’s gonna link it in the show notes. But when it comes to those kinds of things, like you really have to think about what’s most important in your business, and pick a CRM based on that, because I will tell you guys, the basic functions you can get from any CRM, like any CRM will let you create a contract that can be electronically signed invoices that can be electronically paid workflows that in some fashion will let you automate communication. Now, some do it better than others. But they all have a baseline of letting you automate things in your business. So the one thing that I will say, though, and it’s the thing that really gets me, it’s what I hear in all the Facebook groups, and I try very hard not to respond, I just cry in a corner and I walk away. Do not pick a CRM because it is cheap. Like dubsado Tavi. Yeah, all of those are $35 HoneyBook. They’re all 35 $40 a month, okay. There’s a reason that they’re 35 $40 a month, they do a lot of things. So if you pick one that is $20 a month, chances are, you think that you’re going to be getting a lot but in the end, all you’re really going to be getting is like a central place to put your clients. But you are probably going to outgrow the automations in that CRM very quickly. And while I move people from one CRM to another or get them set up in their first year CRM, you know, that’s what I do is my job. Lots of people just sit with a crappy CRM for a very long time because they have anxiety about moving. Now you’re talking to someone who’s shot all of the cameras. So I don’t have a problem switching to something buying something new if it helps my business. Yep. But I know a lot of people don’t have that capacity. So yeah, don’t be cheap.
Unknown Speaker
That’s so tricky because I like every once in a while, you know, you’ve been doing it for a while been with tavae for seven years now or something like that. And it’s gotten better as it went on. But, you know, every once in awhile, I was like, oh, you know, I think I might need to change and I was the same way I was like, I need something a little bit more pretty, I need to be able to customize it, like the client portal interface is a little bit boring. It’s very boxy. And I don’t know, I went to somewhere else. And I started setting it up. And at that point, I was trying to have a separate photobooth business, I tried setting it up both ways underneath there, and I got it mostly set up and then found out that didn’t have this, like one core feature that like made everything work inside tavae. And then I blew like, because I spent three months setting it up because of their time. And it wasn’t that expensive, but it was a cheap one. And yeah, I wasted so much time thinking that this came so highly recommended from all these people in these big party studios use it anyway.
Colie James
I mean, so clearly, they didn’t ever have tavae Because I will say, as a CRM guru as an automation expert, when people come to me and they say they want to leave tavae I’m like, But wait, like, like, why do you want to leave because you are leaving? I mean, now I feel like tavae has gotten a little stale recently. Like they’re not implementing new things. But it’s still really good. So when people tell me that they want to switch and Tavi, I’m like, no, like, like, why? So that I can help you decide if all the things that you’re leaving behind the great reporting, the sales tax reports, being able to see you know, how many of each item you’ve sold, like all of those things. And then the automations because Tavi is one of the few that you know, if someone doesn’t, doesn’t open your email, you can actually move them to a new status. Most other CRMs don’t do that. So I want to get a clearer picture of why someone is thinking of moving. And if their reason is, well, I want more customization, it doesn’t feel on brand, then I tell them, but are you okay losing these things? And if they say, Yes, we’re good to go, we can think about another CRM. But if you say no, this reporting is critical to my business. Well, you need to stay where you are, and just get over the fact that it’s never going to be pretty, like, I don’t know what to tell you.
Unknown Speaker
I really love this video communication idea that you have. And so first thing you said a while ago when we first started was that, you know, email communication is like the the base level, that’s the low hanging fruit. Do you suggest people bring in a video as part of the automation process, like where you record some of the videos to make it a little more personal, because I love that idea,
Colie James
depending on what you do. So one of the things that dubsado does, and I’m sorry, I haven’t set up anybody else in anything else, and so long, I can’t remember. But when you fill out a lead capture or contact form and dubsado or you schedule an appointment, you can actually send them to a specific URL like a thank you URL, it doesn’t have to be a message. That’s actually where I put my videos on my website on a thank you page. Because I am someone who uses simple sales. It’s a system for portrait photographers.
Dan Moyer
I love it. I love it. So we’re going through it right now, literally right now.
Colie James
So you know how she wants everybody to get on a sales call. People like you might not have the capacity you have young children, you know, maybe it’s just not in the cards. I tell people all the time, maybe you do a video instead maybe after they fill out the contact form, you send them to a thank you page that has a video that explains what simple sales is, why it works, why it’s a service to them. And my video on my thank you page actually says this is why I want to talk to you. And I’m very blunt. I’m like I’m a very loud black woman and I really have to make sure that you know who you are inviting in your house for three hours. Like that is why I want to talk to you I am not going to do a hard sell. I am going to make sure that when I show up at your house, you are not wearing matching outfits and that you know how loud I’m going to be when I get to your house like that is why I want a phone call. But if you have young children if you are pregnant if you have a nine to five you just can’t swing it please just hit reply to any email I’ve sent you and say Kohli I don’t have time for a call can you just send me the booking information so I can review it? I am happy to do that. It’s not a secret. I just like to have a phone call so that we are aligned and I make sure that you understand my pricing structure and that you understand what I will and will not do when I come to your house because if you tell me to take like 50 post images you have hired the wrong photographer so we’re gonna need to make sure that you get somebody else
Unknown Speaker
there was that there was a line on your website I cannot find it for oh there it is never mind so first of all side tangent here away from CRMs and stuff but you know it’s all part of branding and I guess workflow to get your right person here the copy on your actual personal well your your family photography website is so spectacular. Like I there was several little parts that I want to highlight a couple of but what you were just saying before was you know who you’re inviting into your life and there’s one line says it is important that I be someone you wouldn’t mind having a drink with. No, having an actual martini with me isn’t a requirement during the bookings or for booking a session, but this is likely to blossom into a long term relationship. I document my clients year after year. And it’s so funny like, this is me accept me for who I am, this is who you’re inviting into your home. And it’s so much more about okay, you obviously have to like my pictures we also have to like me as a person if we’re going to feel comfortable to each other in these like very quiet moments like like one of the ones that hit me like a ton of bricks because when our my twins were born, they were five pounds, four ounces, five pounds, eight ounces, twins, that’s that’s, that’s still it’s a small baby. But like, because our oldest daughter was like nine pounds when she came out. But there’s this one photograph that just like hit me like a ton of bricks, because my wife works in the corporate world. And I was doing a lot of the nursery time, because she was, you know, on regular corporate work calls and sitting in front behind a computer. So I would do a lot of the sitting in the nursery. And I would sit there, there was periods, like in the very beginning where I was in that nursery for seven or eight hours a day, putting them down for naps, giving them bottles or whatever. And there’s this photograph, it says it’s like this little scrolling section says I believe and then it has a little blurb underneath it. And it says I believe snuggling a baby is the best feeling in the world. And there’s a mom and she’s just sitting on a bed and she got this look, she got tattoos on her arm. And she just got her her baby like on top of her and she’s scrolling through her phone. And that hit me in the field so hard because there’s so real and there’s just such a great way of marrying the copy with photos and telling such a great story that’s not like, Oh, I’m this I’m that. Like, it’s so much about getting people into this beautiful space. And I’m just rambling now, but that one hit me so much. And I even wrote it down in the show notes because I just I wanted to come back to your website and really read through it more to just be inspired. So people out there calling games photography.com.
Colie James
Yeah, it’s funny that you mentioned the drink, because I actually do end up drinking with most of my clients. Like I think they really take that section to heart. So I have short sessions. And then I have full day in the life. And so full day in the life. I’m sleeping at your house the night before I go to graphing you oh yeah, all day, like I just did to last month. But like I stay at your house, I photograph you all day, I spend one more night with you. And then we’re done. But in almost every single day in the life at the end of the actual session day, oh, the kids are asleep and all the adults are drinking. Like it’s a thing. I mean, you know, I do make jokes. And I also make sure that people know that I drink martinis because it’s very often people will offer me beer and wine. And when I said no thank you to both of those at one session. The dad like flipped his head. And he’s like, do you not drink? I said, No. What what are you? Do you have hard liquor? Are we getting there soon? I mean, you know, and that particular one, I ended up drinking tequila. But I mean, you know, it is a thing. I do drink with most of my clients after I photograph them for a solid 14 hours.
Unknown Speaker
Wow, that’s so cool that you stay at people’s houses. I didn’t know realize that was part of it. How did that how did was that always a thing? Or did that just come about? Because you wanted to be there early? How did that come?
Colie James
I started doing it in 2014. And the funny thing is, I mean, I told you I was mentoring photographers, the first I think four people that booked me for those were all my students. So they were in my course I was teaching them how to be better documentary or in home family photographers. And it just naturally progressed to I was like, I want to see what it’s like to photograph somebody for an entire day. Because I was doing day in the life of like my daughter and our personal family. Like I would do it as, like a personal project. And I was like, it’d be really cool. If I did this for someone else. I think I’m I don’t know, I’m 40 or 50. And by now maybe more than that I’ve never counted. But I mean, it’s it’s amazing. Most of the people that hire me hire me for these are photographers. But in recent years, I’ve actually had some people who were not photographers, were not hobbyist photographers, they just landed on my website. And when they were presented with short sessions and long sessions, they decided they wanted to try a long session. And so I mean, I do think that it’s growing. And it’s definitely one of my best offers.
Unknown Speaker
That’s so amazing that you’re so that that dedicated to the process, but also that it’s not just okay, I’m going to show up for these 10 minutes or these, this hour or whatever and hope that everything’s perfect. So here’s, here’s my actual question, then getting back to and tying this into your automation process of streamlining this, this is a very, very personal touch, right? And report. I don’t know that how well can it be automated how well can it be created? So how do you automate the rapport side of things and these very little personal touches?
Colie James
So if it is a day in the life so most of the time people ask, do you talk to all your clients? The truth is, I don’t have a phone call with everybody. There are plenty of people that just booked me off my proposal, because the proposal has all the details. It shows my personality. If you get to the end and you still want to pay me money are probably a good fit. So some people just like sneak onto my calendar, but for full day in the life unless I know you from like somewhere else. Oh you can’t book me to come come to your house and sleep, you know, sleep in the next room unless we’ve had some conversations. So for Dan, the life inquiries, we usually automatically schedule a consultation call, where we talk about the process, I asked them why they want a full day we go through those things, I make sure they know the price tag. And then after they’ve booked, one of the things that I send out a client questionnaire, and the truth is my questionnaire for a 14 hour session isn’t any different than my questionnaire for a three hour session, I still want to know every bloody thing about you, I want to know how you and your your partner met. I want to know what you know how motherhood has been for you thus far, what your favorite part of the day is, I want to know all these things. But for day in the life after they fill out that very long questionnaire, we do schedule a call. Now sometimes I just text and if they’re already on my phone, and I’m like, Hey, I read your questionnaire, let’s have a chat. Are you free now or tomorrow. But other times if I know that they need like the opportunity to get the kids settled to do those kinds of things. I will automate the scheduling process by sending them a scheduler, they pick a day and time they get a confirmation, it automatically gives them a zoom link. And then we have a zoom conversation.
Unknown Speaker
So when I feel like I’m hearing that a little bit is that your ability to automate the boring or standard or repetitive terms throughout this process gives you the ability to personalize and the brain space to personalize the parts that really need it.
Colie James
Yeah, that’s true. And I do also want to just say, because listening, you know, the audience is listening to me, I’m sure you’ve gathered now I am 100% not a boring person. But so I do the customization and the personalization, rather, in a couple different ways. Number one, I use images and videos of my clients everywhere that I possibly can. So clients are actually getting to know me through the work that I’m producing. The second thing is everything that I send them sounds like me, in some emails, I cuss in other emails, I tell them about my day with my husband and how he was irritating me asking me what was for dinner. Like I put these kinds of things in my emails, so that I’m very relatable. And most of the time they’re having the same you know, they have the same kind of things happening in their life. And then the third thing is I use gifts and that’s G I F s like, I use gifts them myself doing a thumbs up, I use gifts from like shits Creek, I mean any email that doesn’t have a call to action where I actually need them to pay attention to the button and click the button and do something it has a gift whether it’s Sarah Jessica Parker dancing, or you know David saying something really ridiculous and shits Creek, I use every single gift that I can, because it sparks personality into what could be a very boring part of the process, like telling them, thank you for filling out this questionnaire, I need a minute to read your answers. When I’ve digested them, I’ll be back. But that sounds like me talking. But if I add an a GIF of like, people hugging, or you know clinking glasses for a chair, I mean, it just it brings more to it where it doesn’t feel like a boring automated process, even though that particular email is 100% automated,
Unknown Speaker
that’s really interesting. I mean, so much of my everyday communication with friends, and whatever is is gifts and silly things. And even my wife and I like and this little dad group that I have half of our conversation as gifts. And one of the things that I’ve always talked about on this podcast and with people that I students that I mentor and things is like blurring that line between what the traditional photographer client relationship looks like. And I’ve always said, like, you know, like, how would you talk to your friends? How would you treat your friends and granted, you know, my clients don’t hold the same space, as my friends do. But I’m very friendly with my clients. And I’d love to blur that line. And I think finding ways like that, and inputting your personality through gifts and videos in inside of automated emails and communication is is like, really an aha moment. Like, I don’t know why I never made that connection. I think a lot of people were probably making that same connection. It’s funny.
Colie James
So a couple of people that I did in the spring, when I asked them what their favorite part of the VIP day process was. They were like, first of all, I had no idea that you would write all those emails, and that they would sound like me and not like you because again, I’m allowed black woman, most most people that hire me are not allowed black women. I don’t want the emails to sound like that. So like I am not a copywriter not even a little bit I am definitely a numbers person strategy person. But I do have a knack for reading people’s emails, figuring out what parts sound like them and then asking them like what what are your favorite TV shows? Like that’s one of the questions on my intake form for VIP day clients so that if they tell me friends, shits Creek, like those are the most popular ones, the office, I don’t watch the office so I don’t get any of the gifts. But I have an entire folder on my computer of Office gifts, because all of my clients seem to love them. So you know, I somehow have to get part of the story so that I don’t send a really inappropriate gift that means something different than I think. But I mean, you know Got a couple other clients in the spring were like that was my favorite part that you wrote all those emails and that you made them sound like me and that you put all those gifts in there to where now it’s like a fun little treat when my clients open the emails. So I mean, like I said, low hanging fruit guys, if you want to get started and reclaiming time, automated workflows is not actually the low hanging fruit. It’s the emails. Once you get the emails done, then you can start to think about automating those in workflows. But like you got to write the templates. First, you got to figure out the repeatable processes that you do, whether it’s communication, your booking process, preparing someone for this session, all of those things, you got to create the assets first, then you can start to think about automations and workflows.
Unknown Speaker
I have two questions. The first one I want to ask is, is there? Is there too, too many emails that can go out? Like, like, can you? I feel like it’s like, I can almost hear like myself being like, oh, I can email this to the state and the state? Like, is it too much like or what is too much have you fix that line,
Colie James
I sat down the other day. So I’m, I’m working on a collaboration with another with a copywriter, actually, and she does VIP days. And we’re collaborating, because she needed me to tell her what emails to write. So I finally sat down, because like, I do this all the time for my VIP day clients. But if they’re not photographers, like I don’t actually have a list of emails. So I finally sat down and I wrote some, there are 33 emails that I think every single service providers now may not send all of them to all the clients, but there are 33 that you need. So let me give you a few examples. You need an inquiry response to where when someone fills out your contact form, they get an automatic response from you, that is customized for what they said they were interested in, and also gives them something else to look at on your website while they wait for you to answer. Now, depending on how many offers you have, that could be one email, that could be three emails, it could be five emails, because you need one for each of your offers. Then you need the email where you send the scheduler to get the consultation call. If you do calls, if you do calls, and they’re automatically scheduling them, you need a confirmation that says, Hey, you are booked. You also need at least two reminders, guys, people do not remember shit anymore. They just don’t. So you need to send them reminders, I suggest 24 hours, two hours and 10 minutes if it’s a zoom, so that they have the link handy, that if it’s just a phone call 24 hours in one hour is good. So I mean, do you see we’re already up to like seven emails. And then there’s the booking process. So you send the offer, if they don’t, if they don’t fill it out, and what you deem to be an appropriate time. For me, it’s three days, like three days that you get cut off. So I send them reminders, like hey, I sent you the offer, just making sure you got it if you didn’t holler. And then I say again, you know, I send the second one is not automated, though my second follow up is personal. Add something from the call or the inquiry form so that it’s very personal to them. And then my third follow up is a magic email. I can’t take credit. Before I do my next podcast interview, I should really remember who wrote it because I can never remember when I get on these calls. But it is so terse and Curt, that it gets you a response. It’s basically I haven’t heard back, you must have changed your priorities. I am closing your inquiry. Now mine is a little bit nicer, like but only a little, like, seriously only a little. And I always add in. If you if you change your mind, please contact me again for updated pricing and availability. Because I want them to know if you don’t book me Now chances are I’m not going to be available. And my prices may have increased. So I add that little bit, but it comes at them. So Curt, so that if they haven’t told you that they don’t want to work with you, they feel the need to so that they’re not being rude. Like I tell people my purpose in sending the magic email is not to get a sale. It’s to get closure. I want to know that they hired someone else or that they’re still thinking about it, or that I just wasn’t a good fit. And that’s that’s okay, I like closure. I crave
Unknown Speaker
by Felicia email, like, like, it’s just like, come on. Yes. There’s, um, have you ever read never split the difference? I haven’t. There’s a line very similar in there. Chris Voss is the author of that book. And he talks about like, it’s a book on negotiation. And that’s it’s a one liner, like almost exactly like that he talks about in that alright, too many emails. That’s good to know how many how many photographers that you work with actually have a scheduler right are already built into their process.
Colie James
So let’s I mean, your simple sales I’m simple sales on retails everybody’s scheduled calls, I get a lot of simple Sales Users that hire me, so all of them get schedulers. So if they’re not a simple Sales User, I would say it’s about 5050. And really, I have found and I hope no one takes offense to this, but I have found that the higher the price point, the more likely they are to have a scheduler. So like I’ve worked with brand photographers that charge and anywhere from like 3500 to 5000, like all of them have schedulers because again, for that high price point, you have to make sure that you are offering a service that is aligned with them. So the sales call is just one way to do that. But so yeah, I mean, for almost anybody else that’s not a photographer, like I’ve done, you know, copywriters, website designers, almost all of them have sales calls have schedulers that do the consultation call. Now, I will say though, Daniel, there’s one thing, people need to make a decision as to whether or not you want the contact form first, or you want them to schedule a call. That’s actually where I start to see some differentiation now, because I would say about half my photography clients. Now actually, maybe it’s lower like 35% to 40% of my photographer, clients that use schedulers to do sales calls or consultation calls. They have the scheduler directly on the website, oh, they’re not even having the client fill out the contact form. First, they’re telling them this is my process. If you don’t want to book a call, I’m probably not a good fit. Please schedule your call here. So that’s becoming more common.
Unknown Speaker
I like that I, I’ve always been so nervous because of everything you said earlier about why photographers don’t do this. Why are they there? I’m so afraid, because I feel like my personal touches throughout the process, I don’t want them to get lost. And I think that’s happens with a lot of people. But now I’m like this would free up so much time and so many I sketch I use online sellers all the time. So why wouldn’t I do the same thing within my business to have a contact? Contact Form? And then an immediate reply back with a, you know, here’s the data available. So when you how do how do you suggest that photographers create the space on their schedule? Or did you have like every Tuesday night from four to seven sound thing? How do you set that up?
Colie James
I’m a little weirdo with this. And I try to encourage all my clients and a lot of them push back and I say why don’t you just trust me. And if you don’t like it, we’ll change it. I tell everyone, you need to have at least four days during the week where you are able to take consultation calls. Now. It varies depending on your price point. It varies depending on what service you offer. But like I do at least four days, because if someone comes to me and they are ready to pay me $5,000, I don’t want them to schedule a call for next week, I want to talk to you today, I want to talk to you tomorrow, like as soon as I can get you on the phone. Because when you are thinking about hiring someone to do your dubsado hiring a photographer, whatever the service is, you are immediately feeling that need, it’s not that I want to immediately sell you, it’s that I want you to have the information that I’m going to give you on call so that you don’t like sit and like think about you know, the questions that you’re going to ask and that sort of thing, I want you to get the information just as quickly as you can. So I recommend at least four days. But in those four days, it doesn’t have to be like five hours worth of calls, like just have a one or two hour time block. And you’re not going to get calls in that time block every single day. And a lot of people are like, well, what if they scheduled for when I’m not available? Well guys, that’s when you connect your online scheduler, whether it’s in your CRM, or it’s Calendly, or acuity, you connect that to either iCal or Google Calendar. And Google Calendar will tell them when you are busy. Now that does mean though, you have to actually keep your Google Calendar up to date, oh, no, if you have a doctor’s appointment, it needs to be on there if you have. But the other thing that you can do to kind of buffer is I suggest that no one is able to book a call in less than four hours. Now some people want 12 hours. Some people want you know longer, that’s fine. But like don’t let people book a call in the next hour because I gotta be honest, my phone has been on Do Not Disturb all year. So. So I’m not trying to let anybody schedule and then you know, they get on my calendar and I miss it because then I’m you know, a crappy business owner. But you know, those couple things. So four days, just short time period, so that if they call you or if they’re trying to schedule on a Monday, they’re not waiting, you know, a whole week to ask you the questions that will help them make their buying decision.
Unknown Speaker
I love that you’ve thought through that so much because it’s such a nitty gritty thing, right? Like are you’ve got these automations and scheduling blah, blah was like, Well, how do I block my time? Because I don’t, I don’t like one of the biggest shifts that I’ve had this year is that all my time is mine, all of it, rather than everything is my couples and I have are and my clients and I get what’s left over, I get to rent time to my clients whenever they want. So I start in that perspective now. But I also have these time blocks throughout the week where like, I know I’m doing client calls this thing that day. Yeah, it’s such a nitty gritty thing. And I feel like I don’t know, I’m just going back and forth on on how to set that up and how to make that come together for me, but I love that you’ve thought through that already so much to make it applicable to people.
Colie James
Yeah, let’s just let’s take that apart for one minute. So I said everyone should schedule one hour to do some canned emails. Everybody should. Once you do it, it’s addictive. You’re gonna find more time to finish all the rest of your canned emails. I promise So the second thing that you should do is if you have not literally sat down and figured out how much time you want to work in a week, when you’re going to do actual face to face client work, when you’re going to do client calls, when you’re going to do client work that’s on the back end, like for us photographers, that would be editing, communication, that kind of stuff, you should really sit down in your Google Calendar or with a piece of paper, and literally write down what days you want to do what now you can be flexible. But like for Mike, for example, and I had to have someone helped me with this. I mean, systems, people also hire other systems, people, yeah, help them do things that they’re not immediately you know, that they don’t do every day. But I hired someone named crystal Clark. And in a two hour session, she completely redid my calendar. And now I feel so good about the time blocking and the day things on my calendar. It’s amazing. But like, so I’ll have like, for example, oh, here, you know what, and just be easier if I just tell you, you know, today is a non VIP day. So my day starts at 6am. Because that’s when my brain is fresh. At the end of the day I I’m trash, absolute trash. So I have a morning routine, and then a kickstart the kickstart is 30 minutes. And what I do is I just run through emails before I actually get started on like client work, so that if there’s anything lingering from yesterday, I can answer it, then I have a two hour block of client work where I have already pre designated what goes in there like today, I had to update a contract for a client and their dubsado, I had to update somebody else’s proposal. And then I was working on a client film for photography. So that’s what I did for those two hours. And then I will do you know, like calls and meetings. And then I have lunchtime. And so if it’s open for someone to schedule on my Google Calendar, it will say calls and meetings, but I have marked myself free, so that my dubsado calendar can actually schedule someone for that time. If it’s client work, where I need to be working on their stuff, not talking to them. I marked that as busy so that my calendar doesn’t pick up and schedule someone for that time. Now, it got a little confusing when I added in my podcast because you know this, I mean, you’re scheduling all the things. And then so I mean, I had to get really specific about when I was going to schedule the podcast so that it wouldn’t interfere with anybody else. But like in general, I am really clear now on what should be free time where I’m working, and people can schedule and what is busy time where it’s like, no, no one can get on my calendar, I have items that I need to do either for my dubsado clients or my photography clients during that time.
Unknown Speaker
That is such a powerful exercise that I feel like when you create the discipline of saying like, Okay, here’s this block of time, I’m going to work within that. Do you know Parkinson’s Law is my chance of your Parkinson’s Law says that work expands to meet the time allotted for it. So if you give yourself two hours to do something, you do it in two hours if you give yourself an hour to do something, and it’s amazing, because in 2018, and 2019, I couldn’t get any work done. I was working five days a week 24/7 and could not get a single thing done. And now it’s funny that I’m full time dad from 6am to 231, my wife gets off work. And then I work from 5am to seven, maybe I exercise a little bit, and then I get 230 to 430 before I make dinner, and then at 730 Till, like maybe 830 When I’m a little bit fresh, and I have way less time. But I get way more done now.
Colie James
Yes. So on that this week, I was supposed to have a VIP day client. We talked last week, she didn’t seem like she was ready because people have to have a lot of like the decisions have to be made. And if I talk to you, and I feel like your decisions are not made, and I’m not going to be able to help you make those on your strategy date, you need some more time. So we’ve rescheduled her and why I’m telling you this is because like yesterday, I worked all day long. And I don’t know what I did. Now I was supposed to be on a four hour call with her, and then working on her mapping of her workflows after but I didn’t do that. Now I worked all day like side of the computer legitimately worked in calls all day. But I have no idea what I did.
Dan Moyer
So because of your schedule, it was outside
Colie James
of my schedule. I mean, I just did little things. And they weren’t really things that were like designated on like my clickup list or whatever. Like I just feel like I mean, if I really sat down I could probably like say the things that I did. But like at the end of the day yesterday, my husband was like, how was your day as I worked all day, and I don’t know what I did like not even a little? No, no,
Unknown Speaker
it’s funny when you get that clarity. And I love that because that’s an exercise that I’m working on now is I’m just like really trying to get honed in on having family time and have not having my phone in front of my face when my kids are around a bowl of block. That is a a really good exercise for people to do is time block.
Colie James
I will just go off of that because I want to say I’m not good at it now, but I aspire to get back to it. So one of the things that I was most proud of in my business before COVID hit was that I had made it to where every day when I drove to pick my daughter up at three o’clock I turned off the computers and I had my phone on like the Do Not Disturb so I wasn’t getting email notifications the whole time. Like code They just blurred all those lines. And I feel like more and more, it’s like six o’clock, and I’m making dinner and then I’m coming back up here to do something that I’m going back down. But I will say in the last three weeks, I have made a lot of progress. Not doing it. But I mean, that is something that I aspire to get back to. Because I feel like I was waiting. I mean, granted, my kid is home now. I mean, there’s lots of things that are different. But before COVID, like, I felt like I was really productive during school hours, and that it wasn’t bleeding over into the family time, because I wasn’t letting it like I was legitimately turning off the computers. And that was it.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it’s so tricky. So I’d like to maybe like, come back and take like a 500 foot view now. So we went kind of nitty gritty on some things. And I’m gonna take this 500 foot view and, and just hear maybe a little bit about, I don’t know, maybe pre automation for you, and then what it gave you, but then also the clients that you’ve worked with, because I know you’ve got some stories with something from some photographers and whatever who have come to you just like, tired and burnt out or whatever. And then where they are at after this kind of process. You’ve talked them through and all that.
Colie James
So I tell everyone, the funny thing is in order to get systems because systems and automations are not actually the same thing. But in order to get systems in your business, like things that you repeat over and over again, the first step has nothing to do with automation, the first step is that you get a piece of paper and a pen, and you just write down everything that you do for your clients. And then you write down all the things that it takes you to do those things for your clients. Like, you’re basically writing down the 50,000 foot view of your business related to one particular client offer, whatever it is. So you write all these things down. And that is your first step to creating systems so that you can have more accountability and consistency in your business. So those are the two things that I’m helping you get. I just feel like the best way to get those is by automating what we can. But you can still get accountability and consistency without automations. Like if you just got yourself a click up board or something or a checklist. I mean, until recently, I actually had a manual paper checklist in front of me when I did people’s dubsado setups, I would literally check things off of a list. And now I’m finally it’s in clickup, it’s much better, it’s much less automated, it does all these things. But I mean, I used to paper checklists for the longest and it was good enough. I mean, if that’s what it takes to get you organized, don’t get hung up on the software, don’t get hung up on the automations, you need to figure out what you should be doing for every single one of your clients so that you can get consistent. Once you get consistent, you need to figure out how to make sure that you’re accountable so that you don’t forget to send some one session to an editor if you outsource. So that you know you don’t forget to send somebody an email to say that their gallery is ready, like those kinds of things. But you get consistent first, then you work on accountability, then how you get both of those to be even better is through the automations.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, put you on the spot. Do you have any buddy who came back to who’s like a mess beforehand and came then you worked with them and came back to them and and gave you you don’t have to say their name or anything. But like what they what they said after working with you and what you kind of gave them by Helping you help? Oh, I’ve
Colie James
got some video interviews, I made it. republics, that’s fine. I recently had somebody in the Bay Area, she is a family photographer, and she has a wedding. And I mean, she does everything you know. And she’s, you know, she does very well. But she was beginning to feel like things were falling through the cracks because she couldn’t keep up with everything. And she went, I hired someone to do customer research and my person interviewed her. And what she told her was like I woke up the other morning, and there was nothing for me to do. Like all the contracts were out. Everything was automated, I didn’t have anything to do. So what I said was that you got to enjoy your morning cup of coffee and peace, like you got to take the kids to school without worrying about missing something like that was my gift to you. So that is honestly what happens a majority of the time. Now I will say it is not all roses. And I want to make sure that everybody listening knows, during the automations yourself is not going to be perfect. Hiring someone is not even perfect. Because what you communicate to me that you want might actually change after i. So it’s not uncommon. That’s why I get people 30 days of support. It’s not uncommon that people tell me they want this. And then after I set it up and they’re actually using it, they’re like no, you know that email? Like I don’t like that email, it shouldn’t go out of five days. I need this sooner, like there are tweaks to be made. So whether you do it yourself or you hire someone, please know that automations and systems are an ever growing process. Like you should be revisiting them every week after you initially do it every month later, and then you get to a point where it’s like quarterly or every six months that you’re like, you know, does that email still sound like me? Does it have all the information that it needs? Should we adjust these timelines? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Wow. Holy moly. I never thought about the that’s what we get back just the freedom but I feel like just sit, just sit which if you’re a parent you that that doesn’t happen unless it’s late at night when you start to fall asleep on the couch, I can fall asleep anywhere.
Colie James
My husband to Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
it’s all good. It’s just it is. So I feel like you have given me and everybody listening so many nuggets in there is there anything that we didn’t cover that you’re like, I need to share this?
Colie James
Nope, because I’m in and this was a great conversation. But I just feel like I cannot overemphasize enough that all you need to do is pull out a calendar, and schedule an hour and sit down and write emails. And when you’re done with that, schedule yourself another hour and map out what you want to do for each of your clients, then you can work on improving things like proposals and questionnaires. But like, if someone asked me the number one time drain that I find that all entrepreneurs have, it’s communicating with your clients, it’s writing emails, whether you’re writing them from scratch, or you’re trying to find a draft and you don’t know where it is, or you’re trying to customize every single thing when it doesn’t need to be done. Like we just waste. I mean, we also waste so much time just checking our email all day long. So if you don’t get anything from this conversation, I want you to sit down, I want you to template, all of the emails that you can. And I also want you to start getting some boundaries, like only check your emails during certain times, take the apps off your phone, like I did that for a while and it was the best thing now that my phone’s on Do Not Disturb. I just don’t care because I don’t get a notification. So it’s fine. I check it you know when I’m supposed to check it. And it’s all good. But I think communication is where a lot of us could really use some time to devote to improving what we’re doing with our communications.
Unknown Speaker
You are spectacular. Thank you, Callie. Yeah, that was like, every single minute, I was just like, oh, well, this question like, I’ve got this one. You’re just like, No, no, but I’ve got this like I know what you need to do. So where can people find out more about you and both your family photography and also like if people want to have anything set up for them, give us all the stuff all the D so
Colie James
I’ve got two websites. I’m a glutton for punishment, guys. Kohli James photography.com, which is like my baby. I mean, I used to update that after every single session like that’s another thing. Sorry, I’m gonna go off on one more tangent here. If you are not updating, I teach these things not only for CRMs, but you should be doing them for your website to quarterly every six months. At least once a year, you should be looking at your website to figure out what copy you can improve if your offers are coming clearly communicated if the pages are well laid out. Like these are just things that we should be doing in our business. So sorry, geography website is college James photography.com. And then now I have my services and technically like photography, mentoring on their own website, which is just Kohli james.com. And don’t worry, if you go to the wrong website, and you tell me what you want, it’ll direct you to the correct one. So I mean, you know, they kind of communicate with each other. It’s cool. But that’s where you can find me and then you know, I love chatting with people on Instagram. I’m at Cali James on Instagram. And that’s it.
Unknown Speaker
Awesome. Thank you so much for all of your knowledge and letting me pick it and pull all that good stuff out of you. And I feel like final thought on my side was I feel like this was destined to happen because you’d popped up several times on Instagram. And then I was talking with anime Tonkin was on my podcast, she’s episode 30 And we talked about money and the sticky stuff around that and she mentioned you in that podcast and then I bought her simple sales blueprint. Nope, simple Sale system. So it was a blueprint. Yep, I got that. And then you have this like section in there on pick time and some other things about systems everything that I was like I just needed to have this person on my podcast so I’m so thankful that you are here and got to share this like other side of business that so many of us I think struggle with and doesn’t come naturally and you do it so well. And so pointedly that’s the word I’m looking for. Sustained.
Colie James
Yeah, love those words. were
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