An incredible amount of challenge exists for photographers and business owners when it comes to managing their mental health. In this last episode in my series on photographers and mental health, I am speaking with psychiatrist and photographer Omotola Ajibade. We are diving into a discussion on the mind-body connection, the impacts of mindfulness and meditation, and the best practice for cultivating physical and mental well-being.
The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!
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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES
Combining careers in photography and psychiatry (3:02)
Being a psychiatrist through the pandemic (18:27)
The narrative we tell ourselves (21:29)
Meditation and mindfulness in psychiatry (30:35)
Protecting and practicing mental wellness (34:41)
Considering the effects of physical and mental health (42:50)
When to seek professional help (46:26)
How to cultivate wellbeing and personal mental health (48:50)
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk
Trauma and Recovery by Dr. Judith Lewis Herman
CONNECT WITH OMOTOLA AJIBADE
CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER
Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM
Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO
Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS
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Review the Transcript:
Dan Moyer
Hey friends, I’m Dean Moyer and welcome to the focus photographers podcast where photographers gather. This is the last in a series of seven episodes on photographers and mental health, although it’s about photographers and mental health, or that’s what the title is, each of these conversations is applicable to everybody, whether you’re a photographer, designer, creative, whatever. So if you’re listening to this and not a photographer, or if you want to share any one of these episodes, know that there’s something in here for you to burnout, stress and anxiety are more of a conversation now than they ever have been before. And it’s time we talked about it in the open, because we’re all going through something despite how many of us want to believe we’re in it alone. It’s different for all of us. But we are all going through something. The conversations in these podcast episodes are the stories of people dealing with real stuff and some serious stuff in their lives. Despite the serious topics, I will always approach these conversations with a light hearted curiosity, spontaneity and levity, and my greatest hope is that each conversation will lift you up, give you some hope, and encourage you. I will say though, that these podcast episodes are not a substitute for therapy, there is no substitute for talking to someone whose only job it is is to sit there with an open heart and an open mind and help get you through whatever you’re going through. You want to know how I knew I needed help. When I couldn’t shake my negative thoughts. I started to feel a cloud regularly and without warning, and it would mess up my ability to function some ways in daily life therapy has done wonders for me over the past few years. And it might do some good too. So if you need someone to talk to call or text 988 If you’re in the United States, okay, let’s get to the show. My guest today is the self described renaissance man who lives dual lives as a psychiatrist and photographer. He believes that photography and psychiatry are centered on stories about connections between people places and experiences. These pursuits have taken him all over the United States to countries like India and Nigeria. And when he’s not seeing patients with behind the camera, he loves dancing, singing and traveling. And even though he didn’t say this, I know he loves coffee just as much as I do. It’s serendipitous that he reached out and that we got to have him on the show today. So please welcome my friend Omotola Ajibade.
Dan Moyer
Tara, my friend, I am so thankful that you’re here. And I feel like this is very serendipitous that we got to be on here because as I was recording these episodes for this, you know, series on mental health and photographers and all that I kept thinking like maybe I need a professionals viewpoint rather than like just what you know what all of us are going through. I need somebody who’s a professional who does this. And here you come strolling into my DMs as a photographer, and a psychiatrist. So I’m very thankful that you reached out and that we’re finally sitting here and talking about this. Awesome.
Omotola Ajibade
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. You’re a legend in the New Jersey community is. Like, I’m grateful to be here.
Dan Moyer
Heck, yeah. So So my first question is really like, how does like these are two very different things, right? Like, photography is like, at least from my perspective, is this like creative endeavor? And I feel like psychiatry has got to be like, I don’t know, maybe there’s fields in that. But it’s like, it’s medicine. It’s, you know, very thoughtful and logical and sciency and all that. So how did how did it for you? How do those two things fit together?
Omotola Ajibade
So I never set out to be someone who gets paid to take pictures, like everybody has their own like story. And like, the more I’ve learned about the wedding industry, the more I realized I did my whole career backwards. Basically, how it started was I went to like, I’d messed around with cameras off and on since I was five years old, but I never really took it as anything. And in medical school, I needed a way to stay sane. And my dad had gotten this like nine like Nikon D 5100. And he gave it to me when our deal was like, whenever I need a photo taken, you will take it no questions asked. I was like cool. And then my dad is a workaholic, and almost never home. So I almost never had to make good on that promise. But in the process like like before med school, like there are people who the people who knew me, like in high school and even college knew me sort of as this like music. And it’s hard to it’s hard to like be on stage, write songs record and like mix and do all of that stuff and still pass med school. That’s and so I started leaning a little bit more into photography, then med school ends and unlike the rest of my class, I didn’t end up with a residency in hand and that is where residents for those who don’t know, residency is where the rubber meets the road. Everybody goes through the same law To live training through medical school, and then residency is where you start to specialize. And you can even do fellowships upon fellowships after that and become a super specialist.
Dan Moyer
residency is notorious for being like brutal, right? Like, it’s like very long shifts, no breaks, like just grinding it out.
Omotola Ajibade
Exactly. We have what’s called an 80 Hour Workweek rule. And that’s better than what it was for people in my dad’s generation. It’s still a lot, though. Don’t get me wrong, and still are renters. But yeah, so I get to the end of medical school, and I don’t have a residency in hand. And that’s like the worst thing. Because I felt like I’ve worked so hard for so long, I’d sacrifice relationships sacrificed so many things, to have nothing to show for it. And then trying to reintegrate myself back into normal society was also a challenge because I would apply to jobs that I was clearly overqualified for. But nobody was willing to hire me. At that point, like I started like, shooting just to like, stay sane again. And I did some photos for my dad’s one of my dad’s my dad’s first retirement party. He’s retired like three more times since that first one. I did photos for him. And then one of his nurses asked, like, Hey, does your son do weddings?
Dan Moyer
And they’re funny how that works? Yeah. Cuz
Omotola Ajibade
she was like, my daughter’s getting married. Like, I didn’t end up taking that gig. But that was the confirmation, I needed to say like, Hey, maybe I can actually try to try to turn this into a career, at least in the short term,
Dan Moyer
before you finish on like, like this line of like, where you go from, like, you know, the nurse photographing the wedding for something for her, I want to go back to one thing you said, which was like, you finished med school, and it was not a great thing for you to not have this placement. And so you added wedding photography as a way to stay sane, right? Like you’re spending all this time learning about, you know, going through med school and stuff. And then like, the big moment, like where you said, where the rubber hits the road is when you go to you get matched you go to residency. How did you get through that experience as somebody who’s going into a place of mental health, that’s a huge letdown.
Omotola Ajibade
So I didn’t actually start out wanting to be a psychiatrist. This was a very, like, I’ve listened to some of your other episodes, and I know you’re a man of faith. So you must be familiar with the Jonah and the whale story. Yeah, this is like my descent or ascent into psychiatry depending on how you want to look at it was very much like a GET THE to Nineveh situation. Friends of mine in medical school said, Hey, you should really consider a career in psychiatry, but like, multiple layers of like cultural stigmas against a career in psychiatry, back then psychiatry wasn’t really well known or well liked and it wasn’t among doctors it was the thing you didn’t want to do because you never got paid. Like, like everybody would joke that you’d end up broke but for but as I went through what I call it the Purgatory years because it’s like residency is supposed to be like most med students look upon residency as if you’re finally ascending into heaven only to get there and realize it’s not quite all it’s cracked up to be. As I languished in purgatory for four years I ended up like really digging into photography both as a creative outlet and as a way to like supplement my income but didn’t always pay great at first but it certainly it certainly put a couple of meals in my mouth, which was which was nice.
Dan Moyer
Did it also like was obviously it was you know, to help keep you sane and to pay some bills did it also serve the purpose of like, helping you explore because there’s some letdown there right was it was just was it the creative outlet to just like get you focused on I don’t know, the the weight that it was a such a bummer that you didn’t get this match like or maybe that maybe that was was the last big of a thing. As you know, as I’m thinking it is where you didn’t get this match, like, like, I’m just wondering how because that to me, if I’m in this thing where I’m dedicating years towards medical school, and I don’t like the next step is the big thing and I don’t get that match that I’m a hypersensitive person. So that would like wreck me for a while.
Omotola Ajibade
So like, I like now that I’m on the other side of it and tell people you don’t know how strong you truly are until strength is your only option. Having like having seen what my dad experienced like before before we started recording I was telling me like, the numbers are a little bit different when you’re an immigrant coming into the system because you cannot unless you train in like Canada. You cannot practice medicine in the United States. without going through the residency, right. And so like, my dad, my dad went through medical school in Poland, he worked in Poland for a little bit, then moved back to Nigeria. So he had effectively become a doctor in two countries and then came to this country and became a paperboard, for for a little while, you know, before he finally like, made his way into, into medicine.
Dan Moyer
I was I had a groom, like way back when, who was practicing as an anesthesiologist, and in the UK, and he came here and like, he was in his early 30s, like, practicing for a while, and he came here and same thing like, like, couldn’t do anything exact, and he was already practicing. It’s wild. I didn’t realize it was that such a step back?
Omotola Ajibade
It can be. And so like, knowing what he went through, like, I already had at least a model of resilience for me. So I knew that I could, I knew that I could try again. But like, I didn’t know how many times I would have to keep trying and trying and trying. And that’s the part that’s that was a challenge in the whole process.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. Okay, so you are going back to what you were talking about before where you started your photography, sort of career by your dad’s nurse coming to you and saying, Hey, do you do weddings. So what happened next after that,
Omotola Ajibade
so I didn’t actually take that job because I was still, that’s the thing. I didn’t take the job because I was still expecting to match into residency pretty shortly thereafter. Okay. And so like six months go by this job has come and gone. And like back in unfirm, Macon, Georgia. So back in the day, we used to have this like guild called ampersand. And the person who the person who founded the guild looked up one day and was like, hey, Tola, do you shoot weddings, I was like, Ah, so I’ve shot weddings for like family. Like had my camera at like Nigerian weddings, which if you’ve never done a Nigerian wedding, oh, my God, it is a crash course. And how to survive just wedding photography in general. So I had a couple of those under my belt. And she was like, Alright, cool. Good enough. I’ll send somebody your way. And then it turned out that this this was a very sweet couple lovely folks. The bride was actually a resident at the hospital where I went to medical school. So we didn’t know each other because she came in after I’d already graduated. But some of my friends were her colleagues. So like, just based on that relationship, she understood where I was at. The groom was very impressed by like, like simple things like going to the venue to see how the light moves through the space. I’d never been paid to shoot a wedding before. So that was a total cya move. But doing your due diligence. Yeah, I was just doing my due diligence. And he was impressed by that. And so now that’s like, that’s my MO, like, when you hire me personally, to shoot your wedding. I will go with you to the venue. See, what’s your vision, check it out, watch how the light moves through the space plan my lines of ingress and egress that type of deal, that that type of thing. But it still wasn’t a done deal, because I’m still expecting to match. So a year later, like they’re interviewing other photographers and stuff, and they’re like, well, let us know. Like if you’re available, and so like may roll no marches. March, April is when the when you find out and so I was like, so spring rolls around, essentially. And I’m like, Well, I’ve got good news, and I’ve got bad news. The bad news is that I’m not going to residency this year. The good news is that if the offer is still on the table, I would love to be your wedding photographer. And so that’s how it started.
Dan Moyer
Wow. Interesting. Okay, so then, fast forward, you know, at some point you get into residency, right?
Omotola Ajibade
Yes. Another like two, three years after that and get into residency. And so this is 2019 At this point, okay. And well, like I cut teeth and makin learn the business, learned how to shoot, but in the grand scheme of things, I’d also like underpriced myself or maybe I priced myself right leaf for that market. And so I was like, when I get to Jersey, I’m gonna do this, that and everything. And so like learning how to, like rebuild your life all over again, was something that I like, I mean, I’ve done it a couple of times before. So someone I knew what to do. And then 2019 rolls around and trying to like network and meet people and stuff. And then towards the end into 2019, it starts to look a little dicey. And then things go haywire in 2020. So
Dan Moyer
are you in residency during in 2020? Like, are you like, practicing as a psychiatrist at that point?
Omotola Ajibade
Yeah. So I was practicing as a psychiatrist the whole way through the pandemic.
Dan Moyer
Okay, goodness, so, so were you, you were also practicing and had like sort of a photo business going on during that time. And
Omotola Ajibade
for the majority of the pandemic, at least until there were vaccines, I could not go out and shoot, because it’s really bad business to be the guy who accidentally kills her clients, you know. Like I did, I did a first anniversary shoot for, for one of my co residents. And I did a bridal shoot for a nurse friend of mine. When I when I came back to Georgia to visit, and those were literally the only two jobs I could bring myself to do. Because I was like, well, if push comes to shove, I know where y’all have been. Y’all know where I have been. If everybody is cool with this, we can make this happen. They were the only people that I felt comfortable enough to want to work with. And so after the pandemic, after the pandemic was when, like, things slowly started to pick up again, but by then I’m like, in the trenches of residency and so it’s
Dan Moyer
so now you’re full blown into the psychiatrist world, right? Are you now that you’re back down in Georgia? Is that your your plan going forward? Like, are you? Are you going to be part of a practice? Are you going to open up your own practice? Like, what does that look like?
Omotola Ajibade
So for the next year, I’m going to be doing a fellowship in forensic psychiatry. And no one ever knows what that is. So I’ll put it to you do not know what that is ever seen. If you’ve ever seen law and order, or handable, or paid any attention to the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trials, those are all examples of what forensic psychiatrist can do. It’s basically at the intersection of mental health in the legal system. So it can range from like criminal work, sort of like what one does on law and order. Investigative forensics as what like Hannibal does on the TV show, where he goes out and tries to like, get into the mind of the serial killer. Interesting, though, like, it’s very rare, like those are like the sexiest, most touching versions of the job. The nitty gritty of forensics work is really just being a dock for people who are incarcerated, a lot of times, and especially writing legal reports that lawyers can use in cases that they have either before the court or to settle legal matters, either criminally or in the civil context.
Dan Moyer
I want to go back to this like intersection of pandemic photography business, psychiatrists, because for many people during that time, like nobody obviously knew, during the early parts of 2020, how long it was going to be how, you know, drawn out everything was going to be and that broke. I think a lot of people well, I should say, and at least from everything I’ve read, it’s like, it’s not the usually the big event that breaks you. It’s the the aftermath, it’s dealing with, like, all the stuff that comes after it. Right. So I guess what I’m wondering is, like, people were really struck during that part, and they’re burnt out and, and like, you know, worried about, even like the bare necessities. So it’s like, as a psychiatrist, and somebody who’s trying to, you know, also have their own business and all that stuff. How did you navigate that, but then also, just talk about that, that circumstance of like, how you talk with people through like a really difficult circumstance like that.
Omotola Ajibade
So in the context of the pandemic, I would tell people a lot of times that it is extremely rare to live through history and know it, right. And so that weight is something that you should really like, take the time and take stock of where you’re at who you’re around, because 100 years ago, there was another there was a pandemic that was similar in scale to this one, like Spanish flu, wasn’t it? Yeah, Spanish flu. But the thing that people forget in all of this is that people still fell in love. They still got married. I mean, they might not have gotten married right then and there but they still like liked each other enough to want to, like make miniature versions of themselves, you know, like lifestyle goals. Yeah, yeah. In so like, even in the midst, in the midst of in sometimes in the midst of all that you’ve lost as a result of trauma. It’s hard to take stock of all that you still have. And so when when I would speak to folks, I would try to remind them like, listen, like, Sure, it’s a shitty situation. But if there was ever a time to have a pandemic of this magnitude, I would rather have it like right now, right now when you can actually when you can put a cloth over your face and how to actually be effective at minimizing your risk of disease, right now, when you can communicate with your loved ones in real time, in the days of Hispaniola, in the days of the Spanish flu, you sent a letter, it didn’t arrive for months. So you didn’t know if the person who was about to receive it was alive or dead. But like, just like how you and I are talking, I kept in touch with friends back in Nigeria family in Europe, like this was the best worst time to have a global pandemic.
Dan Moyer
Right? Hmm. This This reminds me of something that I saw on your Tik Tok. And I think the the action was on Instagram, too. It was, um, the title like on the actual picture was coffee with your therapist, I think is what it said. And there’s a line that stuck out to me. And it also in your comments stuck out in a bunch of other people. And you said, a word is light enough to carry with you. But it’s also heavy enough to burden you. And he basically said like, just be careful of the stories you tell yourself. And it sounds like in this really difficult situation. You’re saying, hey, like, there’s another story here that you can tell yourself? You can you can pull yourself out of it by changing this narrative.
Omotola Ajibade
Yeah, absolutely. We are not in this is like to answer your tangential question about how psychiatry and photography modeled to me at the heart of it, it’s really about storytelling. There’s a the very act of taking someone’s pictures, you saying that this person existed? Granted in these days of AI that’s like, that’s maybe
Dan Moyer
it’s maybe we’re not going down that the AI train.
Omotola Ajibade
We’ll leave it at that. But yeah, the very act of taking someone’s picture or photographing a moment during a wedding day to say, this person existed, this moment existed, it mattered to somebody, right. And so like, you don’t you have no idea how much the the narratives we tell ourselves carry over for years and years, the little things that people do. And sometimes it takes generations for people to realize it, the patient that I was speaking about, when I said that she had had a difficult relationship with, I can’t remember if it was for I think it was her dad, she had had a difficult relationship with him. And he had said some exceedingly hurtful things to her over the years. And she carried that with her throughout her life. But she didn’t realize how much of a role that had played in all the other things that happened over the course of her life now don’t like, be happy for this woman, because she came out on top, at the end of it all, she came out on top, but like to get there, there was a lot. And to not understand that you have carried all this weight with you for so long, also played a role. So in the grand scheme of things, like how you frame how you frame the narrative of your life, or even particular moments changes, you’re really relationship to those things.
Dan Moyer
There was a something that I shared maybe a couple of months ago now at this point on Instagram. And for the longest time, I’ve been photographing weddings for over 13 years. And for the longest time, I would always say that Monday sucked, right? Like I come back. I’m tired from the weekend. I’ve got you know, all the cards to download. I’m, you know, I’m just sluggish, right? Like I’m getting, I’m just getting back into it. And I was expecting for this particular Monday to be that same way. And it was like I’m standing there, I’m staring down a week of, you know, getting kids ready for school and just being lethargic and all this stuff. And it’s like, wait a second, like, it doesn’t have to suck today. Like, like, what if I just What if I just like instead of being tired at two o’clock in the afternoon, I forced myself to put my running shoes on and like got outside for a little bit. And it’s like, I think you have to be self aware enough to, to like realize that like I’m complaining about a situation that I have total control over. Right, but also like, like, it wasn’t the data and all sudden, it wasn’t all of a sudden perfect, but like just that little like act of rebellion of saying that at all. Like let me tell myself a better story that I’m going to eat well today and I’m gonna get like a little running and I’m gonna spend some time in my hammock and whatever it is, but that’s like it’s hard to do. Even though sometimes, right? Like, it’s hard to just like, like, get the like, move through the sludge to like, get to that point.
Omotola Ajibade
I had an old man like back when I was in college and we did these like service learning rotations and I was at a nursing home, I remember this old man said something that has always stuck with me, it’s easier to look at where you’re trying to go, than to look down and see all the stuff you got to walk through to get there.
Dan Moyer
Wow, looks at it. Again, it’s easier to
Omotola Ajibade
to keep your like, look at where you’re trying to go, than to look at all the stuff you have to walk through to get there.
Dan Moyer
Let’s talk about that for a minute. Because I don’t know, I’m somebody who has paralysis by analysis. And in one of my little dad groups, we were talking about this recently that like this one guy, no, like really has. He’s amazing at generating ideas like incredible. He’s got amazing ideas all the time. And he’s got like a handful that are on the top of his list all the time. And they’re great ideas. And he’s had them for months, maybe over even a year. And he gets so focused on like step number 93. And figuring out that step, when he’s done step three, right? Like, is that part of what you’re talking about? Where it’s like, this is all the stuff I’ve got to get through to like, get up to here was like, how do you it’s easy to get on that negative thought train, right? And look at.
Omotola Ajibade
Absolutely, but keep your eyes on the prize, and then keep moving. You don’t miss it. Like if you if you because people win. Psychologically, when people get stressed, we get tunnel vision, right? And this for better or for better or worse when I when I work with couples and tell them like, listen, you’re gonna be under a lot of stress throughout the day. But when the day is over, if you end the day in the arms of the one you love, everything else is a success. Everything else will turn into a funny story that you tell about your wedding day in 20 years, right? Yeah. But so it’s easy. Like when you’re in those like high stakes situations, you got to keep your mind you got to keep your mind focused on like a handful of things. But you have to make sure they are the right things. Because what happens when people get stressed is that they make the make a beeline for the first thought that enters their head. And it’s not always, it’s not always the best thought. So it’s so in some ways, it’s a it’s a, it’s a nuanced take. And functionally, it’s actually easier to keep your head upright than to keep your head pointing down. When you keep your head pointing down, it actually puts a lot of weight on your spine. So like so like deep metaphor.
Dan Moyer
That’s a very deep metaphor. Now I’m wondering, like, from a brain perspective, right? Like how, how you do that, because I forget who it was. But somebody was saying like, you know, you’re in like the throes of this like very emotional thing, right? Because I feel like I feel like what we’re trying to say is like, I know that this thing up here in the distance is going to be really good for me. But all this all this emotional stuff. All that’s the steps in the middle like are are like the sludge that I have to walk through. And I feel like when I get into like this very hyper emotional place of I’m really fixated on like a doctor’s appointment, right? Say I have to go to the doctor, and I’m just like, Oh, I’m gonna get the bad news this time or whatever it is. I don’t know, totally. My wife is like totally rational that totally logical, you’re young, you’re healthy, you exercise, you got good genes, blah, blah, blah. It’s almost like the logical side of stuff can’t even like get through the, the emotional side of things, right? Is it like different parts of the brain? Or, you know, I mean, like, it’s so complex. Yeah.
Omotola Ajibade
So like, when when you get into that sort of state, like this is where like, I think it was on Taylor’s episode where she talked about breathwork. Yes, what are some of the breathwork stuff comes in, because like, one like the act, the act of breathing, like if you take a deep breath and you hold it, what it does is it actually puts a little bit of pressure on your carotid sinus. And that activates that activates your vagus nerve and sends a signal down to slow your heart down just a smidge. Like without your without your vagus nerve. A lot of things when your body wouldn’t work, it runs from inside your brainstem, all the way down to the tail end of your stomach and touches your voice box, your heart, your diaphragm, which is the real thing that allows you to breathe, right and a couple of other things along the way. So like breath, like taking a deep breath. And just taking those few moments for just yourself. makes all the difference in the world. And then it’ll allows you just enough bandwidth to start to process things a little bit more clearly,
Dan Moyer
I get some separation from it.
Omotola Ajibade
Yeah, it’s sort of like it’s sort of like a quick reboot for your computer. Like, humans. I always say humans are squishy computers with faulty programming. Breathing is a great way to like, reset that computer just a little bit.
Dan Moyer
This is totally ignorant of me, like because I’m ignorant about like the differences between like, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrist other than like, I know psychiatrists can give medicine. Like, for some reason, I wasn’t thinking that a psychiatrist has like the meditation mindfulness, part of this like, like, is that all is that also wrapped up in, in what a psychiatrist talks to their patients about?
Omotola Ajibade
Some of them do some more than others it is, all of it was once upon a time in our wheelhouse. But because psychiatrists are de facto physicians, psychiatrists go to medical school. All right, everybody else does not. Got it. And so like, what do physicians do, they either cut things open, or they give you drugs. And so for a long, yeah, so for a long time psychiatrist, because of like insurance reasons, we’re not getting reimbursed for all the time that they would spend in therapy, and all of that kind of stuff. And so that became sort of de facto, someone else’s stop. But we do still have that training. And some of that is sort of creeping its way back into the fold. The program where I trained, I was very fortunate that we did have an integrative medicine rotation, where we talked about some of this stuff. And some, some people are self starters, and will seek out those sorts of integrative modalities on their own to both learn for themselves and to teach to their patients.
Dan Moyer
I love that because I just feel like it seems like my parents generation, like would have therapy sort of weaponized against them, where like, their parents would say, Oh, if you don’t stop knocking, if you don’t knock it out, in particular therapy, or whatever, it seems like it was like, like a fluffy term for a while to think about, like breathwork and meditation and all that stuff. And And now, it seems like there’s so many studies around it, that you can actually change your whole physiology and all that stuff, just because of reducing cortisol levels and all that stuff, just from breathwork. And, and, you know, meditation and all this stuff. I just think that it’s so beautiful. Like that is also part of like the spectrum with which you know, the full width of and spectrum of things that you can do to help people through these. Yeah, absolutely.
Omotola Ajibade
I mean, like for 1000s of years, especially when you when you think from like religious freedom, we’ve always imagined ourselves to be embodied souls. So the mind and the body, the soul and the body are connected. Medicine believes itself to be able to extricate and silo off one part from the other. And I think I think we’re now starting to rightly disabuse ourselves of that notion. The mind body connection is most apparent, especially in the world of psychiatry. I know in the past, like past guests on the show have talked about things like EMDR and noticing where you hold your attention and things like that. People have recommended the Body Keeps the Score, which again, I highly recommend. And for those who have been through various traumas in their life, I also recommend trauma and recovery by Judith Herman Nash, she actually happens to be very good friends with Bessel Vander Kolk, the guy who wrote the body keeps the swarm. But like I like it’s both of those can be heavy reads. So pick it up process through some of it, put it down, like do like take it in bits and pieces, because some of it will be retriggering. But it can help especially do that Judith Herman’s book, trauma and recovery can show you what the process is like for going through various types of trauma and be the work that goes into recovery from those roles.
Dan Moyer
As you’re a you know, someone who helps other people through their mental health issues and things like that. That’s one got to be taxing on you. But you’re also not without your own trauma. And you know, we’ve all got something so I actually had I was gonna ask this question already, but I love that somebody from Instagram I asked this question for me to ask you. And they just said, what do you do to protect and practice mental wellness for yourself,
Omotola Ajibade
I use everything. Like, I use everything as an outlet for everything else. That’s mine met. Personally, it’s not scientific, like, if you imagine, you imagine your life as a series of buckets that are all full to varying degrees with water. And over the course of your life, you want them to hit at least an average state that’s like reasonable, like your money bucket has to hit a certain point over the course of your life, your like relationship bucket hits a certain point over the course of your life. All the other buckets, your spiritual bucket, your career satisfaction, your family, all of them. They don’t all have to be maximally full at all times. Yeah. That’s the thing that people don’t understand. Over time, you should you should endeavor to have like all the different buckets of your life over the course of your life, you want them to be as full as they possibly can be. But that doesn’t, but that’s going to be averaged over the course of your life.
Dan Moyer
Long timeframe. You don’t have to worry about like today or this week, or Yes, right.
Omotola Ajibade
And so what that does is like an empty, like, an empty cup can’t fill another, but a full cup can’t receive from another either, right? So like when all these buckets are like maximally Fuller, maximally empty, you’re setting yourself up for dynamics that like can be untenable. So for me, like, photography was an outlet for me to deal with the stresses of medical school. And at one point, it became a source of income. And especially when I when I travel is when I get to explore all other facets of photography, because your mental frame changes significantly when you do photography exclusively for the money and not for the joy of taking a picture. 1,000% Yes. So like when I when I get to travel is when I get to explore like street photography, like getting people to like model and try out different things. But like when, when shooting for a client, that’s a whole different, that’s a whole different experience. So like traveling is an outlet to practice other forms of photography that I enjoy that have nothing to do with the pursuit of money. Photography is an outlet that I enjoy, that allows me to take a break from my clinical life. Music is something that I do for my soul, even though I’m like, I can’t play an instrument to save my life. I can arrange beats and sound loops a little bit. But yeah, I use some fun, just to have some fun. Sometimes, like for sometimes I’ll like throw something that I’ve created into like a slideshow for a client. But like, for the most part, it’s mostly for me, like, if you find like, like, if you can fill some of those buckets just enough that if you needed to you could receive from someone else’s bucket, or pour into someone else’s bucket that makes life infinitely easier.
Dan Moyer
Yeah, this idea of like, like, obviously, everybody says, you know, we’ve heard that saying a million times you can’t pour from an empty cup, but also like, a completely full cup can’t receive any more. That’s also a really interesting thought that maybe I’m seeing that as like balanced or something where it’s like if this one thing is so full, right? Like, maybe you’re spending too much time on filling that bucket or whatever, but also just the idea that like they don’t all need to be maximally full like and this reminds me of, it’s like a Sunday it’s called like the wheel of your life or something like that. It’s like eight, eight areas of your life and I forget what they all are, but it’s you know, money, relationships, spirituality, friendships, like that kind of thing. And, you know, it’s like, they talk about like the spokes and how you want to sort of like, like, push each one of those spokes, like from the center hub out like how, how full out can each of those, you know, spokes be and then you write yourself in each one of the areas and you try to draw a wheel around it or try to connect the dots all the way around. And they say like, how smooth does your your wheel roll? And often thought that that was that was misguided that like I don’t need a 10 in every single one of these things. Like maybe for me, a six or a seven is like fine for a relationship right now because I I’ve got like a solid amount of relationships and too many more is just gonna, like make it unbalanced or you know, I don’t want to put that energy there. But like, I like this idea of like, you don’t need to fill up every single bucket, not everything has to be like perfect and awesome and totally full all the time,
Omotola Ajibade
things are allowed to suck.
Dan Moyer
Right? And then that suckiness is where figuring stuff out and growth comes from.
Omotola Ajibade
Absolutely. Like, especially if you hold a lot of like anger and resentment. That’s a bucket that does not need to be maximally full people do dangerous stuff when that when that buckets maximally full. So, one, it’ll either overflow on its own. It’s like, what was it that said, like, if you don’t like your burnout with will prioritize your health for you or something like that? Yes. So like, like burnout will breed anger and resentment and then do stuff that’s like self destructive or worse, even destructive to other people. So like, that’s a bucket that you should probably, like, find a way to like Spill it out, like, pour it out and wave it won’t harm other people. So that you’re not harming yourself either. But like, not every bucket needs to be full beings aren’t allowed to be a little shady sometimes.
Dan Moyer
Right? And I think that you know what you’re talking about of, of like, you do all the things right? Like maybe it’s sometimes like meditation does not come easy for me. But sometimes it’s like, no, no, I just need to not be around anybody. And I need to sit in my hammock for a little bit. And or maybe I just, I’m feeling like I need to read and like I haven’t read in a while. And maybe that pulls some of the water out of the anger or the frustration bucket right that you’d like I can pour some out because I’ve gotten, you know, to fill up my time alone bucket or whatever it is. Exactly. This bucket idea is interesting. I’ve heard it used a lot forum for finances where there’s like different parts, like different buckets that you put money in 401k Bubble blah, but I really liked this idea. Like I said that spoke one, or like how smooth is your wheel always bugged me. And I like the it’ll be like your
Omotola Ajibade
wheel also doesn’t have to be perfectly smooth. Either. It just but
Dan Moyer
that’s what this framework says. Like you want your reel to be smooth and roll round. And I’m like, but that doesn’t mean you should
Omotola Ajibade
ideally you should want it to be smooth as smooth as possible. But if it doesn’t, if it’s not perfectly smooth, but it still gets you where you’re going, like you still got where you were going,
Dan Moyer
right. A little bumpy on the way there but learn some was that saying smooth seas never made for a skilled sailor?
Omotola Ajibade
Exactly.
Dan Moyer
Okay, so use all the things. I have one other question that I don’t even know what it means is from Instagram before we wrap things up, and it said, this is some big words here. How do you mitigate balancing treating a psycho pathology and a physical pathology?
Omotola Ajibade
So I think what the person is trying to ask is how do you deal with sort of the mental health effects and the physical health effects of I guess a person’s condition? Like, there’s a couple of ways to think about this. One is do they already have like medical issues that might increase their risk for a negative outcome. And the other thing is like, because the drugs that we that we give us psychiatrists aren’t always the most benign. And so they can cause pretty serious side effects. Some of them can increase your risk for like bad knees and things like that. It’s important to keep in mind that this does not happen to everybody and in fact, happens to like a fraction of a fraction of people. But if you’re someone who’s already at high risk, that can be something that you want to talk with your with your provider about. Generally, the approach usually is like you think about what the person what illnesses the person has, both from a mental mental health standpoint, and from a physical health standpoint, what illnesses are you actually trying to treat? And what therapies will get you the outcomes you’re looking for while minimizing the risks involved? Because just because something is a problem doesn’t mean you want to do anything about it. Sometimes there are there’s more than one way. The saying is there’s more than one way to skin a cat which I think is a terrible. Let’s say there’s more than one way to carve a tree. Okay, yes, I feel like it’s a little bit more but not nicer. But yeah, like. So when when you start to when you start to think about these things, it’s important to think about the person as a whole person. And so it goes back to the mind body connection. Usually, if you solve one problem, it helps the other one get a little bit easier to deal with. And so that’s, that’s probably the simplest way to think about it. But there’s no there’s, it’s the answer to that question is pointed, be as individualized as the specific set of circumstances that each patient finds themselves.
Dan Moyer
Gotcha. I feel like in this whole, like podcast before, like, jumped around between different things, and I feel like, you know, I feel like I sort of know what you’re gonna already say, but you know, from this from your sort of, like, you sound like somebody who I love the your, like your well roundedness, right, like, you obviously know, like, the literature, you have the medical background of all that. But you also still appreciate the, I don’t know, maybe less scientific sides of it, like meditation, breathwork and all that. But I guess I’m just wondering from like, this clear and concise way that we can sort of put it out there, for people who are just in a place where, you know, we all just like have the go through the doldrums and that kind of stuff. And then sometime it, there’s two questions I want to ask, sometimes the doldrums become, you know, like, it’s just every once in a while, where it becomes more than that. And what’s the point in which somebody should consider seeking professional help versus realizing like, Oh, this is just like a, I’m just having a bad day versus this is multiple bad days and affecting me like, when should they seek out professional help?
Omotola Ajibade
So the generally the way we make diagnoses in psychiatry, it’s based on how it impedes your overall quality of life? Does it affect your ability to do work? have meaningful relationships with your family? Does it affect? Does it affect how you feel in a way that you don’t like? If it is, then let’s talk about it, and let’s see what we can do about it. And what we can do isn’t always going to be medicine. I had a I had a guy who had insane nightmares, sometimes I would end in him like jumping off the bed, and like having a concussion. And we treated it by talking like we used movies like Inception, and what’s it called? And the like, the concept of the multiverse from the Loki series, it’s a really break down the concept of lucid dreaming and teach him how to alter the contents of his dreams. Wow. Yeah. So like, not everything a heck of an intervention? Yeah, it is. I mean, like, so, like, lucid dreaming is a whole thing. I encourage people to read about it. It’s fascinating. Like if you’re if you’re the kind of person who struggles with a lot of nightmares, Dream rehearsal therapy, which is an aspect of lucid dreaming can help significantly. But like, like, those kinds of things, it depends it really first and foremost depends on where that person is at. And what and sometimes it comes down to like, what can you afford it because these medications can sometimes be extremely expensive. Even just a regular session with a therapist who isn’t prescribing you anything can be expensive. And so like you meet the person where they’re at, they try to help them as long as best as you can.
Dan Moyer
So my final question is, from your perspective, you see a whole wide range of different things. What is like the average, I guess you could say of like, like, things that people can just do maybe on a daily basis, or the weekly the monthly, whatever it is, to just continually cultivate a sense of, of well being and and really look after their own personal mental health.
Omotola Ajibade
Get Sleep, sleep, sleep, as much sleep as your body will allow you that is meaningful and, and restful and restorative gets. The reason I say that is because when you act like I’m not encouraging any of y’all to go read the DSM, but that is the quote unquote, Bible of psychiatry. And when you actually look at the diagnostic criteria for a lot of mental health disorders, they involve sleep. And that’s something that the average person just doesn’t do. Well. You have to like I tell patients all the time that they have to treat their sleep, like the hot date that they’re excited to go on. It, like that’s the level of intentionality you have to have about your sleep. Now, granted, I have like, I don’t practice what I preach, I am terrible in that way. And it’s mostly because like, I have the blessing. And my wife would argue with the curse of being able to be out like a light as soon as my head hits the pillow, same me too. But if you’re not one of those people, prioritizing your sleep, like I don’t like if you’re a night owl find ways to sleep during the daytime, or whenever you find appropriate, but find ways to prioritize sleep. And if not sleep, then some kind of rest. Because if, if you ritualize that to a certain extent, then when something comes up, and it’s very stressful, you already have it at the back of your mind, I can survive this stress for this long so that I like once the clock hits this moment, I’m in my first time. Yeah, I think I think that’s a good enough way to phrase it. I can survive this. This long. And once the clock hits midnight, or 1030 Pumpkins last time, I’m not like
Dan Moyer
Dude, that’s actually such a great analogy of of treating sleep, like the hot date that you can’t wait to go on. Because it’s like, you get ready for a hot day you like shower up you like, you know, pick out your outfit you you get excited about it. And I think it’s the same thing where like, I’m, there’s a book out right now by Dr. Peter Tia, and it’s called outlive and it’s like, basically the science of longevity and all this stuff. And there’s like a huge chapter dedicated to sleep. And he’s like, so many people are like, we can do it so much better. And also, what’s his name, Dr. Matthew Walker, who like runs the sleep center, somewhere on the West Coast. He’s like the he’s like the sleep guy. And he just talks about like, all these ways that we’re all messing it up, like having phones next to us looking at blue light two hours before bed, and like all these different things. And there’s all this stuff that you can do to increase your sleep, like taking a shower an hour before, you know no electronics inside the room. Make sure you have like this kind of pillow and that kind of this all these different kind of things. But that’s such a great, that’s not what I expected. But that is such a that’s not surprising, really, when you look at like the data and all that stuff.
Omotola Ajibade
Yeah, if you don’t like for people who have bipolar disorder, especially if you don’t sleep for long enough, you will flip yourself into a manic state. And that’s when sometimes that’s when the terrible stuff happens. Like, but like the hard part, the hard part. And all of this in like dealing with a lot of mental health issues is that people sometimes think that it’s these grand interventions that are going to be the most rewarding or the most life changing. And sometimes it’s not it’s eat food that is nutritious, and filling and restorative for you get sleep, or at least get rest that is restorative for you. Do one small thing every day, that just brings you joy. But it did like it can annoy the shit out of everybody else. But it just for five minutes. Like that’s not that’s not if you can do one of those things in any given day, you’re probably doing better than like 90% of folks.
Dan Moyer
I love that and that is a beautiful place to finish up. So where can people follow you a little bit more? Where can they learn more about you and just keep up with your talking head videos that you do that I love so much.
Omotola Ajibade
I’m glad you
Dan Moyer
do that. You should create a whole series called Coffee with your therapy or throw coffee with your psychiatrist. I would crush and I would watch every single one of them please do it.
Omotola Ajibade
Okay, I will try it well
Dan Moyer
but yeah, we didn’t talk about coffee I forgot Darn it.
Omotola Ajibade
My my coffee my coffee habit is very simple. It is whatever gets me the most caffeine the fastest. So yeah, done. Yeah. But if y’all are looking to connect with me on App mythic voice on the face term, Witter grams and whatever else is out there. I didn’t come up with that. I heard that
Dan Moyer
you gotta you gotta take it and I wouldn’t have noticed the
Omotola Ajibade
same thing like then that’s more for like, especially client Facing photography work, I really have to do a better job of updating those things more regularly. But I’m also online at doctor of mines on the face Tom Ritter grams and tick tock at both of those places as well. Feel free to come by say, Hello. If you have questions, I’m happy to answer them to the best of my ability. But I will add one significant caveat. I have a doctor, I’m just not your doctor.
Dan Moyer
Got it? Man, I am so super thankful for your, I don’t know, just like one, the, your willingness to like just reach out. And like we didn’t have a connection before that or anything. And I’m just really glad that you just took that step to to make it happen and make and make this happen. I’m really thankful for your knowledge. And obviously, like all the years of study that you’ve done, I feel like we we could probably go another like four hours and like not even scratch the surface. But that you just have like this such a great well rounded viewpoint on like, and making this like very complex stuff seem approachable and possible that like, all of us can move into a better space. So I’m thankful for that and thankful for you.
Omotola Ajibade
Thanks so much. I really appreciate your time. And I appreciate everything you’ve been doing.
Dan Moyer
Thank you, man. Let’s do it again. Maybe in like, let’s another year, let’s call it a year, we’ll do another I’m gonna do another mental health series. And we’ll come back and maybe we’ll talk about like specific. I don’t know how much you can talk about clients and stuff. But like, there’s, there’s so many other ways that we could take this and I’d love to explore this a little more with you. You can be like the resident, you could be my resident psychiatrist on the podcast. How about that?
Omotola Ajibade
Sure. People send all your questions to Dan. We’ll compile them over the next year and do this again.
Dan Moyer
Actually, that sounds really fun. I think we should make that happen.
Omotola Ajibade
Okay, I’m down. So thank you.
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