How can you begin to create systems and workflows in your business that reduce overwhelm? This episode is another installment of the missing ingredient series, where I’m sharing the hidden steps necessary for running a successful photography business. My guest today is Melissa Rich, owner of Virtually Done Systems. Melissa is sharing some incredible insight into the bare minimum building blocks for a workflow, how to find the right CRM for your business, and two simple questions that will kickstart your systems. 

The Focused Photographers Podcast was created based on the idea that the most incredible tool for learning is a deep dive into any given topic from multiple perspectives. Join us every other week as we explore important topics, with host Daniel Moyer and a variety of guests offering different perspectives! Make sure you’ve hit that follow or subscribe button on your favorite podcast player to get notified each week as we air new episodes!

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REVIEW THE SHOW NOTES

The conversation around overwhelm (3:27)

Where to start with building systems (6:20)

Your system needs to adjust with you (11:30)

Workflows for the solopreneur (17:52)

Overwhelm when creating systems (20:06)

Identifying the bare minimums in your business (24:30)

When to get rid of a system or workflow (28:10)

Building rapport via automation (35:23)

What to consider when testing CRMs (41:05)

How to handle the unpredictable (45:08)

Knowing how you work (52:20)

You have to keep it simple (58:22)

Connect with Melissa (1:02:31)

CONNECT WITH MELISSA

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CONNECT WITH DANIEL MOYER​

Website: WWW.DANIELMOYERPHOTOGRAPHY.COM

Wedding Instagram: @DANIELMOYERPHOTO

Business Instagram: @GETFOCUSEDPHOTOGRAPHERS

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Review the Transcript:

Dan Moyer
Hey friends, I’m Dan Moyer and this is the focus photographers podcast. A while back episodes, I think 52 through 58. Were a series on mental health and photographers. In some ways I feel like this episode should actually be a part of that series overwhelmed for creatives is a real challenge. You’re trying to figure out all the things all the time with your business and trying to balance work life balance and all this stuff, and it just tends to pile up over time. Well, my guest today is here to demystify, shine some light into the dark corners of the systems and workflow life, to help you reduce decision fatigue, reduce your overwhelm and have the brain capacity to be creative when you need it. This episode is part of a larger series on the missing ingredients to running a successful business. There is an abundance of education on pricing presets, sales and marketing. But I feel like there’s not enough focus on the other things required to run a successful business. But systems and workflows are one of them. Let’s face it, a lot of us creatives do not have the brain for logical systems thinking. But I think that’s where Melissa comes in today to break it down for us. In this episode, we’re talking about what systems are, what are the bare minimum building blocks for building a workflow, how to break down a workflow to build it in pieces, testing out your CRM system and choosing the right one and so much more. One of my favorite parts of this episode is when Melissa shares just two very simple questions, that kickstart any workflow or systems creating endeavor that she undertakes. It’s really a helpful one, I think, for so many of us that like I look at systems, and I look at workflow, and I know I have things that I do, but it just feels like a mountain of effort to be able to write it all down and think it all through. But Melissa really helps to demystify them. So after this episode, I think you’re going to really come away from this episode feeling a little bit energized and a little bit focused and a little clearer on how to make systems work for you. Rather than feeling like you have a mountain of things to do to get your work life balance and overwhelm entrepreneur troll. So without further delay, this is my conversation with Melissa rich of virtually done systems.

Dan Moyer
Thank you for being here. I’m so excited. Especially after our little like 1520 minute intro chat before things got rolling here on the actual recording,

Melissa Rich
right. I know, but I feel like we’ve had so many like conversations over Instagram and like, I feel like we’ve connected and so it’s so great to see you want to be here. Yeah,

Dan Moyer
it’s really interesting. And we were saying about this like, sort of pre podcast recording that there’s so many people that you connect with, like I’ve met you know, Colin James, you know, I’ve had her on the podcast have been her podcast, joy, Michelle, you and like all these people who I’m regularly DMing. And we’re responding to each other’s stories, but yet never met in person. And I just want to find a time, like some conference or something somewhere where I’m like, oh, there’s that person that we talked about all or I’ve talked to all the time. And now we get to meet and actually high five in person or something. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. So you’re somebody who we’ve sort of been on the periphery of each other’s Instagram lives and all that stuff, we’ve obviously interacted with each other’s content. And the content you’ve been putting out lately sort of hits a big spot in my heart because it’s about overwhelm. And I, somebody who has been in business, you know, as a full time wedding photographer for 13 years and moving into some other things. There’s a lot of conversation about burnout and overwhelm and frustration right now. So what are you seeing and where is that content coming from?

Melissa Rich
Absolutely. 100% overwhelm is a real thing. And I feel like for so long, everybody was stuck in this hole hustle culture, right where you have to hustle, hustle, hustle, especially if you work for yourself, especially if you’re an entrepreneur, and especially if you want to go places. And so I feel like part of the overwhelm is a symptom of that part of it is a symptom of over the last few years, so many new business owners have come into business, and they’re trying to figure things out. And it can be really overwhelming. So many older businesses have been in business for a long time and are working on refining things and working harder than ever, because there are so many businesses and people are just going at it, giving it everything they’ve got. I feel like there’s just overwhelm comes from everywhere. It’s not just one single place or thing.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, yeah, it seems like it’s like you everybody gets into weddings, or they get into photography for this reason that somebody says, while you’re really good at taking pictures, you should run a business. But just because you’re good at running a business doesn’t mean that you’re or just because you’re a good photographer doesn’t mean you’re good at running a business. And so you get into it, it’s like Oh, I’m just gonna take some pictures and then it’s, I need to form a business I need to pay my taxes. I need to know what cameras to buy. I need to learn how to take payments and get contracts and then oh, I need to make sure I’m sending these emails to this client. I need to make sure I’m using this template. Now I’m spending too much time sending emails and I don’t have time to edit pictures and right like that’s that’s the overwhelm

Melissa Rich
Yeah, it comes from everywhere. It’s everything I don’t know, I don’t know, a single photographer that started their photography business because they wanted to start a business. Because they didn’t like taking photos. You know what I mean? You don’t start a photography business. So you have people to email and keep track of and massive to do list, you start a photography business, because you love photography. Yeah, but

Dan Moyer
but at some point you’d like you get in the thick of it. And you have a massive to do list and stuff. So it’s like, at some point, somebody’s like, I’m so tired. I’m so burnt out. What do I do now. And then that’s where you come in

Melissa Rich
100 100% 100%. Hopefully, there’s this thing I like to say build systems before you need them. Right? That doesn’t always happen. Because a lot of the times you don’t realize you need a system until you are in the thick of it. And you’re up to your eyeballs in whatever it might be editing, marketing efforts, blog writing album designing, pick, pick a thing, you know what I mean? And then you’re like, oh, shoot, this is way harder than it has to be, there’s got to be an easier way to do this. That’s where those systems come into place. So ideally, you build systems before you need them. But number of times that happens slim to none, I would say,

Dan Moyer
okay, build systems before you need them. What is that, like? That sounds so nice. And so simple and sweet. And let me just package that up into this nice, neat little thing for you. That’s fun to say on the podcast. But it’s like, I can hear myself being like, Okay, that’s all I’m gonna do that. And then I sit down and my I’m just staring at a blank cursor, like, what do I do? Where what are the things that I actually do? How do I even build a system?

Melissa Rich
I mean, it honestly, whether you realize it or not, you have a system for things, right? Whether it’s documented or not the order of things that you do for your clients, the process, you go through the emails you send, like, we all pack our camera bags, you know what I mean, we all have a certain order for doing that. That’s the system, the way you load a card and back the photos up and then archive that card and deliver your gallery. That’s a system whether you have a documented or not. And so for people who are like, I need systems, I don’t know where to start, I’m super overwhelmed. It’s always I always recommend taking it one step at a time. One taking a deep breath, right and realizing that it’s gonna be okay, because it’s not,

Dan Moyer
it doesn’t have to be thank you for that being the first step could be okay, it’s gonna be okay.

Melissa Rich
systems don’t have to be big, overwhelming, super scary, super automated, super perfect things, right? A system can be as simple as a checklist and the Notes app on your phone that says these are the things I need to do before a shoot, or these are the things I need to do after a shoot. That’s the system. And so when you first get started building, I always recommend the big mistake that a lot of people make is that they say, I’m a wedding photographer, I need to build a workflow for my clients. Oh, gosh, where do I start? It’s so big. That’s such a big process, I spend so much time with them. You’re trying to like excuse the phrase, but you’re trying to eat an elephant hole instead of one bite at a time, right? You don’t build a system by looking at the whole piece, you build a system by breaking it down and looking at it piece by piece by piece. Right? So breaking it down and looking at that inquiry phase, what happens there, and then booking and then pre engagement or pre session, and then pre wedding, and then post and then you tackle each of those little things one at a time. So you’re not tackling a 16 month relationship with a wedding client in one go. You know what I mean? You’re tackling the two to three weeks that they’re in inquiry with you at it, and you just take it step by step and break it down.

Dan Moyer
But okay, yes, that feels right. But what happens if you’re like brand new? And you’re like, Okay, I don’t know, what happens? Do you just say to yourself, What do I want to happen from point A to point B, and then you just build the system and then just try to stick to it like it’s a map for like something you’ve never, you’ve never done that path before. But you know, you want to go from point A to point B, and you’re hoping that this path will lead them there? And you’re just in the way? Super

Melissa Rich
great question, right? Because a lot of people who are just starting out, a lot of educators will tell newbies, you need a workflow, you need a system. And so they’re like, where do I start? Educators? Like I have one you can buy, right? For $97.

Dan Moyer
Right? Perfect. And it comes with it right?

Melissa Rich
And so then a lot of people do that the problem I love, I love templates, let me be the first to say I love I’m a template girl, I love them. I love educators, I would not be where I am without them. The catch with that is a lot of newbies will buy that template and get stuck trying to put it into their CRM or use it or not change it and adapt it to their brand and voice. If you’re just starting and you don’t know where to start. A good thing to think about is like you said, here’s where I’m at, here’s where I want to be. What do I think needs to happen between here and there? I like to ask a to there are two questions I like to say that you have to ask yourself what is the information that I need to get from my clients in order to do my job? And then the second question is what is the information I they need from me so that they will feel good, feel comfortable will feel at home? In my business, right, those are the two biggies, because ultimately, a lot of workflows and a lot of systems boils down to those two things. And then you just kind of start building. And when you’re brand new, sometimes you really are just hobbling it together. It’s kind of like that con, that first photo contract that first wedding photography contract, right? It’s like two paragraphs, and then, heck, you know, 13 years in, it’s 25 pages long, because every time something comes up, you add to that, right, you’re worthless in your system are the same thing. Like, you might start in one place. But the more you learn, the more your clients learn, the more you learn about yourself, and how you work and your expectations realities for yourself, the more that workflow in system is going to change, and that’s, it should change as you change. And as your business changes and evolves, it should not just stay the same. Because if you keep it the same, and you change, then you’re going to be tweaking it all the time, right? And you’re going to be making changes all the time. And you’re gonna have to decide, does this still work? No, no, I want to do this instead. But you’re still going to have this system that’s trying to do one thing and so enters, that presents you with a ton of tiny little decisions to make, which then leads to overwhelm like you were talking about. I love that

Dan Moyer
idea of starting with answering two questions. What info do you need from your clients? And then what info do they need from me? Or what do they need from me and just starting at that spot, and you can sort of take that and implement it into each of those like sections? Like, right, you said, you know, what’s the inquiry phase? What’s the pre booking phase? What’s after the booking phase? And then you said something that, I want to go back to that, like you have to adjust with your system? Is that what you said,

Melissa Rich
your system needs to adjust with you?

Dan Moyer
Right, just with you. Okay?

Melissa Rich
So for example, okay, for example, here’s a good example, you and I talked about this, I don’t know if we’ve said it yet, I was a wedding photographer for 15 years with my husband, right? Yeah. And about, I want to say eight or nine years into that business we were focused solely on, we’re gonna give you the most gorgeous, luxurious, perfect portraits, and these portraits is perfect portraits are going to be what matters to put it lightly, that’s when our soul started to rot. And when we started at what is nobody be offended by that. But that’s when we started to really hate what we were doing. And so at that point in time, we had these systems in place, and all of the language and all of the verbiage and everything we were doing for our clients was super perfect. It was super luxurious, it was super formal, we were trying to do all these extravagant giftings. And all of those things, you know what I mean? And we rebranded our business, right, so our because our business model changed how we treated our clients changed, which meant that our systems had to change. Because if we were still in our email still coming across with this, like, this is gonna sound bad, but like this holier than thou, we are these perfect people who are gonna give you this perfect experience. But all you see are moment rich photos, that’s going to clash, and your clients are going to be super confused. So we had to update our systems so that it reflected that language and or that brand and that personality and what we actually wanted to deliver to our clients.

Dan Moyer
Gotcha. I’m curious about that, that you changed. So you’re all about the portraits and all that kind of stuff. And then you made a shift from that to more moment based that I hear that explore that a little bit what what was the shift? Did you feel like moving from total portraits to, to moments would be more meaningful to you or something like that? We’re

Melissa Rich
with you, we got bored with the idea of perfect, which is hard for me, which is weird for me to say, because I am a recovering perfectionist through and through, right? Talk to anybody you know, and they will tell you that I have struggled with the idea of things being perfect for as long as I have been alive, I like to say Done is better than perfect. But realistically, we were bored with perfect. And the clientele that we were attracting, they made us feel icky about what we were doing, because we were doing appreciate you well, if they didn’t appreciate us, and we were pretending to be people that we weren’t. And so you do that enough weekend, time after time, weekend after weekend. And that starts to eat at your soul a little bit. You’re like, who am I really? Am I really happy doing this? We’re putting in all this work? Is this really what we want to be doing? And so we made the change to loosen up and unbutton a little bit, you know what I mean? And we attended a workshop with Eric and Ladyman. And that was the pivotal point for our business and our everything for the last few years. And it was just not to toot our own horn, but we were pretty damn good at what we do. Oh, yeah, do it say we’re pretty good at what we did. And we, we were so much more happier. And our clients were so much more fulfilled, because we were doing what was true to us inside and so that that meant a lot.

Dan Moyer
So what does that look like when you’re changing from one brand to another? And then your systems have to follow? Like what kind of how did you go about that process of auditing your systems to say, Okay, we were optimized for this whole thing. We spent years and years and years and years doing this thing. And now we’re going to shift to that and as I imagined that it’s Probably not hard to make the adjustment when you already have like something in place. But like, what does that auditing process look like to move from one to the other? Boy,

Melissa Rich
I’m gonna nerd out a little bit now, right? Because we’re talking checklists beyond the law, like, so many checklists, but essentially, what we did what I’m gonna, what I did, because I’m a Systems person, right, I handle the back end, what I did was I took a look at our workflows and our systems with Kyle. And we were like, Okay, what is really working? What are we happy with? What is effective with these clients? Okay, now, let’s take that, and let’s tweak it so that it fits with it, so that it fits this brand and who we are better. So maybe before we were meeting our clients for drink at a champagne or a wine bar, right, forget that let’s go to the dive bar instead, or the coffee shop down the street, you know what I mean? It looks like revisiting all of those emails that you know, that clients have to get from you like, again, you know, you have certain information you need to give them, you know, you need certain information from them. revisiting that, how can we twist what we’ve already got, that will fit our new brand? How can we word it differently? How can we make it more casual, and it was just piece by piece by piece, you have to attack at all from every single angle? And then a big part of that was also because we were still have we still have clients at the time, it’s keeping your clients in the loop, right? Because you can’t just decide to turn the switch on one day and be like, okay, because we’re different now. Good luck. That’s not what you booked us for, but okay. Right. But client communication is a big part of that. And we had to build systems to communicate specifically with previous clients and with new clients. So

Dan Moyer
that’s interesting, that, like, I’m thinking that I have, I used tavae. And I have my wedding workflow in there, my business is just me, there was a point at which I was trying to do other people. And I had another studio where I had two photographers, and, you know, they had that brand. And so I tavae and all stuff. And I just realized that like, I like being a solopreneur. I like, you know, I outsource, you know, plenty of my editing and calling and all that stuff. But I like my business being nimble. And I’m thinking about how in tavae, like, I haven’t updated the workflow in a long time. Like, I think it’s still has in there, like, I use an AI calling an editing program now. And I think I still have the systems in there for when I was physically sending out catalogs to an actual editing company and all that stuff. And I wonder what sort of like peace of mind, if even if you’re a solopreneur, having like, a workflow will give you right, because I feel like there’s this, like you’re talking about your husband and you and having this, you know, a business where you’re changing things and you want to have like something where you’re there’s has multiple hands in the pot, you want to have something where you can check something off and know where any job is that at any point. But I’m just wondering, like, what’s your experience working with an individual? Who like is doing all the things? And what what systems do for that person?

Melissa Rich
Absolutely. So this is going to go back to decision fatigue, right? If you have systems, and if you have workflows that workflows in place, and documented when you are editing, when you’re doing back to back wedding weekends, and you have four other weddings that you’re trying to get edited, and three coming up, and so on and so forth. And you’re sitting there trying to figure out, what do I need to do today? What’s important, what have I sent, what have I not sent, I don’t even know where to start having systems in place reduces that overwhelm, because one, your systems are either automatically taking care of some of that for you, right? Or they are telling you exactly what you need to do for this client and this clan, this client, there’s none of that. Shoot, should I do this? Or should I do that? Should I do this? Or should I do that, that really, you know, how you get when you’re in the middle of busy season and your brain is just tired and you’re not sleeping? You’re not making any spur of the moment decisions using that super tired brain? Because previous you built these systems when you were thinking clearly and correctly and not on two hours of sleep and five weddings in you know, you know what I mean? Right? And so you can you like to think that you can rely on previous not tired you to help you build these systems and tell you exactly what you need to do when you are exhausted. So that you don’t have to think about it. You don’t have to second guess it. And yes, solopreneurs might be like, Yeah, but it’s just me, I’m always gonna know what to do. Yeah, but on days when you’re tired or sick, and work still has to get done, or and this is super morbid. But God forbid, like, you are unable to execute something or to finish something. You need to have workflows and systems in place. So somebody can step in, and you can be like, this is where you’re gonna see exactly what needs to be done and how you need to do it. And it’s all there ready for you. You just have to do it. Yeah, super morbid. I know.

Dan Moyer
But no, but that’s, that’s for real life. Like I have a friend who like literally texted me and was like, Hey, I’m on my way to the hospital. I think I think I’m having pains in my arm. There’s a folder on my desktop, you know, has all the stuff in it if something happens, you know, the password to this is this, you know, tell my wife, this blah blah. It’s like yeah, That’s, that’s, I mean, that’s real talk, especially when, you know, you’re dealing with somebody’s wedding memories and you know, stuff happens. So okay, so you like, you take a look at all the things that you have. And you know, the way you pack your camera bag and though what you want to do for your clients and the things that they want from you and what you want from them, and you write out the emails and all that kind of stuff, but then it comes time to sort of like doing the work, right? And how I’m thinking like, like, do I? Should I be opening tavae? Like every day? Like, should that be the spot where I’m saying, Okay, what do I do today, and I open tavae. And like, there’s my list, because it automatically populates all of the things in my workflow that need to happen. And if I’m checking them off, it’s all up to date, like, but that’s a system in and of itself, that every time I sit in front of the computer at a certain time, I have to have a system for opening tavae, right, like, it just feels like it’s starting to get like overwhelming and I don’t know how to how do we get past that, that overwhelm?

Melissa Rich
That’s a great question. And honestly, I think it goes away to a certain point, once you use it more consistency is key, right? So like, the more you use something, the more you get used to it opening Lightroom for the first time, holy cow, my mind was blown. And I didn’t know what to do or where to go or how to do it or anything like that, right. And so but you use it, you keep using it, right? You keep using it, and you keep using it, and soon it becomes old hat. So you’re like, Oh, I’m a pro with this, I could do it in my sleep systems are gonna be the same way. No, they are not easy. At first, I will be the first to admit that. And I tell everybody they work with that this is gonna take some getting used to, especially if you’re used to keeping it all in your head, especially if you’re used to keeping it in five different notebooks. But you build these for a reason, you have to trust them lean into it, they will take time and weight off your shoulders. And before you know it while you need to tavae every day, you’re gonna be like, Oh, that’s what I need to do. Check, check, check, check, check, done. And it’s just, it’s gonna get easier. Don’t give up a lot of creatives, a lot of people that I talked to, I know, that’s easier said than done. But a lot, right? A lot of creatives that I talk to, they wind up with CRMs that are halfway set up, or they’re using just a little bit of this, a little bit of that, because they just got so overwhelmed with the initial setup. And yeah, it is a lot the catch is breaking it down, focusing on the must haves, right? And then taking it piece by piece I was I gave a talk a while back a couple months ago for like a local group here in Kansas City. And I was talking with one of the photographers in the audience. And she said, Because I was talking about the must haves, right? What do you absolutely have to get done? What are the what’s the bare minimum? And she made a comment that somewhere along the line, somebody gave her an analogy of you’re juggling all these things as a business owner, right? You’re juggling the marketing, you’re juggling, the photo editing, the content creation, the actual taking of the photos, all the things, some of those are glass balls, and you do not want to let them drop, right? So you have to figure out what are your glass balls? What are the non negotiables that cannot drop no matter what can talk content fall off and get dropped? You’re probably right. Yes, I’ll be the first I do that. That’s what that’s what I like there are things that you cannot drop, like responding to your clients emails and backing up photos and things like that. Those are those are the things that you have to have a system for. Even if it’s just like I said, a checklist and a Notes app on your phone that you’re following to make sure that you get it done for every client like start bare basic bones minimum and build up from there. It doesn’t have to be complicated.

Dan Moyer
I love that glass ball analogy right.

Melissa Rich
I thought it was so good. Thanks Jessica Rourke. I’m stealing that and sharing it with the world.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, wow, that’s lovely. I’m written now and down that’s gonna become that’s gonna become a clip on Instagram. Got it? So when you bare minimums? Yeah, I think when like when you’re first starting out, it’s so tempting to just do all the things like to just like put all the things in place. And this is so tricky because I also feel like like we can I want to go I want to go two ways here I want to talk about one this bare minimums idea, but then also how easy it is for like your your system to get so bloated and so, so ambitious, that at some point you need to like chop it off and when when do you need to give up or automate or or get rid of a workflow or a system that isn’t serving you? So first one is this bare minimums idea like what are like how do you identify the bare minimums? It’s just a matter of sitting down behind a pad of paper and being like, okay, these are the things I can’t live without inside of my business. Yeah, pretty

Melissa Rich
much I mean, let’s take an let’s take an initial client inquiry, right for example, right initial inquiry workflow. They these people are contacting you because they want to pay you and give you money right. So what are the bare bones? What are the basics that you have to have in your system? You need to have An email that gets out to them that tells them about pricing and availability and all of that, right. And then this is something a lot of people forget about. Also, you have to have the follow ups to go along with that. Because people sometimes people just get busy or people miss your email. So you have to have at least one to two follow ups that go out. I like to recommend this is super like a hot take. But I like to I like to automate those follow ups. And oh, right. But Melissa, how are you going? What if they already emailed you back? Here’s the thing. You stuff.

Dan Moyer
Exactly what I was gonna say. An idiot, right? I

Melissa Rich
get it all the time. Here’s the thing about these follow up emails, don’t make them hey, I’m just following up to make sure you got my message or hey, I’m sending pricing again. Make them hey, you’re interested in a family photos. Here are a few resources I thought might be good for you. Here are my favorite family photo locations are here are my here’s what to wear for your family session or that kind of thing. Pack these full of resources. So it looks like you’re just receipt reaching out to help them and educate them and guide them instead of hey, did you get my email? I haven’t heard back from you. You have a book me yet? What’s going on? You know what I mean? That way, even if it’s automated, it’s not like it’s not weird, because you’re just giving them resources and good content. Right?

Dan Moyer
And staying on top of mind. Yeah, exactly.

Melissa Rich
Because some Okay, the number of times and here’s the thing, I recommend two follow ups, right. The reason is that, like, the number of times that I or my clients or other people I know, have gotten ghosted until a week after that second follow up, email goes out, and then I get it. Oh my gosh, we’re so busy. We’re so sorry, this thing came up. We had to handle yourself on a book. If you don’t send that follow up. Shoot, that’s money out the door. Right?

Dan Moyer
You’re buried below 100. Amazon, JC Penney, Zappos? Yes. emails in their inbox. Yeah. Okay, Penny.

Melissa Rich
Right, there you go. So bare minimums, right? You need to have that lead contact form at least two follow up emails, and then say these people want to give you money to take their photo, how do I do that? Right? You have to have a contract to cover your butt. And there’s, you know what I mean, you have to you have to have an invoice or proposals, they you don’t want to take the time to put the whole proposal together, at least make them sign a contract and pay an invoice and then send automated invoice reminders. So you still get paid because you gotta get paid. Yeah. Bare Bones basics, those are the minimum. All

Dan Moyer
right, so then the other question was, you know, as you’re going along for a super long time, or you’re just like, in the beginning, you’re super ambitious, and you make this like, I’m gonna reach out with a white glove service, I’m gonna have six phone calls with them. We’re going to meet for drinks twice, we’re going to do this, like, I want to do all this stuff. I want to send a detailed wedding magazine, I want to make sure that they get a gift from me, right. And also before you know you’re not doing any of it. But you have all these steps. And inside Tada, you’ve got that little are inside your CRM, you’ve got this 6000 Things that you have unchecked. Yeah, yeah, over overdue tasks. In tavae, it’s read. And it’s just like, you have 1000 Things that you have supposed to do over the last three years. So when do you know it’s time to just put it on the chopping block?

Melissa Rich
Ask yourself, am I actually doing this? Or am I? Or is this thing popping up in my list? And I’m just skipping it or deleting it or marketing is done. Ask yourself, is this feasible for how I work right now? You know what I mean? Because I know that, for example, I always wanted to send our clients gift in our wedding photography business. I always wanted to that’s how I wanted to surprise and delight, okay, I am really, really bad at sending gifts. Okay, let’s just, let’s just be honest about what it is what it is. I would always skip that to do always I don’t know why. But that just wasn’t feasible for me. Maybe maybe you want to meet your your wedding client for drinks to go over their timeline, in addition to meeting them to go over engagement photos, in addition to meeting them for go over that. That’s a lot of face time with you. That’s valuable time. What can cut, what can you cut back on that they won’t notice? You know what I mean? But additionally, you need to think about how you work, right? You mentioned you want to have six phone calls with the client? Do you like talking on the phone? Are you actually going to make that phone call? Because if you’re not if you’re just gonna look at the phone and be like, Man, I need to make this phone call. And I’m just gonna turn it into an email instead. Chances are you could just send the email or send a text instead and cut the phone call completely.

Dan Moyer
Yeah. Or do you have children who it’s not like I love talking on the phone. But as I’ve gotten further along in my business, I’ve just realized that like setting like setting up a phone call is just very tricky. It has to be after bedtime. But after bedtime is also my like date night time with my wife. It’s time when we’re just relaxing or sometimes that we’re getting work done, but it’s like I also just don’t have the energy then. So as much as I love you, like just getting a lot of things done with a phone call. I’ve scrapped some of those and just allowed clients texted me, and that for me, that’s a fun boundary, like my phone goes on, do not disturb at 530. And I don’t see anything until the next morning at 630. And all my clients know what their full buying on that. I’m just like, yeah, just send me a text. Because the thing I hate most is when I get an email that’s like a single question, and I have to write back. Hello, Melissa, it’s so great to hear from you. Thank you so much for reaching out your wedding’s in 60 days. Yay. Who can wait? Okay, on to your question, right? Like I’m done with that.

Melissa Rich
One. I love that boundary that you said we’ve talked about about setting boundaries before like in other conversations, I love that boundary,

Dan Moyer
have a system

Melissa Rich
to you bring up a good point, you don’t want to hop online to type out the answer to one question in an email, use an email template, right? Any email that you think you might have to send more than twice? Even if it’s in response to a question like my clients always asked me this question. Turn that into an email template, send it proactively. And then you know what I mean? You’re not having to hop on to answer that question. Or maybe you can just be like, Hey, I sent this here or resend that email. So interesting to do that.

Dan Moyer
Huh? So it’s not I’m saving this template, that when I get the question, I’m searching for the template and sending it back. It’s, oh, I get this question a couple of times. Let me just add it to my pre session workflow. Because chances are somebody else has this question. And even if they don’t ask it, it might be on their mind. And I can look awesome, but you know,

Melissa Rich
what question all photographers get a photo is going to be done. Photos, when are my photos going to be done? Right? What am I going to get those? When am I going to get a sneak peek? How do you handle that? Right? I like to if you if you are curious. I like to send like a day after email, whether it’s for a portrait session or a wedding day or whatever that says, hey, we had a great time, your wedding day was amazing. Your family session rocked you whatever it was, make them feel good. The point of this is to make them feel like yes, you really did have the best day ever, it was amazing. And then here are the next steps. Here’s when you can expect your sneak peek or your gallery delivery or this create a template out of it, send it automated, I like to use custom fields. I know tavae has those a lot of other scenarios, too. I like to use custom fields to kind of figure out that due date, right. So if I’m saying I normally deliver a family photo session four weeks after the session date, I know that’s going to be right around here. So I’m going to create a custom field of popular pop that date in that way this email can go out automatically the day after their session or even two hours later. This is hey, great session, here’s when you can expect your photos right around October 11. And then send it right. The catch to that is you gotta you gotta gotta gotta under promise and over deliver.

Dan Moyer
Right? That’s the catch there on October 1.

Melissa Rich
Right? Right, but like, but like use custom fields use little automations like that, because you know that the question you’re gonna get, and you could proactively answer it. Or you could get 500 text message. And I’m not saying that texting, the texting is a bad thing. But you hear horror stories about clients who are texting their their photographers 20 minutes after the session whenever a photo is going to be due.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, I love that proactive idea. Never thought about like, I have tons and tons of templates. But I’m always just like, oh, like, it’s gonna take me forever to find this template, versus taking that template that I already have, and adding it to something else pre wedding because like, there’s several things that I have like, after the couple books I sent out this then a couple you know, a couple days later, I send out like this checklist. And then like two weeks later, I have this like, it’s like the big email with like, just all the big stuff. And I always get emails back from that I was getting responses back people love, like reading that and writing it. It’s got advice in it. But then there’s, it’s like pretty blank after that. And I’ve often thought like, like, what else can I put in there? Now have lots of ideas.

Melissa Rich
See, that’s one of those things you got to think about when you’re building your systems too is the amount of time that your client spends with you. There’s a big difference between the amount of time that a family portrait session client will spend with you and a wedding client or wedding client, you’re talking anywhere from 16 to 24 months, right, based on when when you let people book with you. What are you going to fill that time with? Are you going to get the? Or are they just gonna get the Hey, thanks for booking email, and then send me your timeline email. That’s a whole lot of empty time that you can use to what does it drop the seed for this or drop the seed for that or educate this or educate that or really prime them so that come wedding day? They are like rocking and rolling? Right? So like timeline tips, or hey, it’s not too early to start thinking about your wedding now bomb here next few examples. And then like if you do sales, send them the loaded up albums where there’s like, Oh yeah, I’m gonna have to buy extra pages to fit all of this. You know what I mean? Like, send your favorite engagement session locations or timeline tips and tricks or what to pack on your wedding day or you could Google what why should I send my wedding photography clients or use chat GPT to come come up with ideas of how to fill those months, but it doesn’t always have to be a, hey, check in to make sure you’re okay or Oh yeah, I’m interested to this kind of thing. Fill that time. And then they’re gonna think one that you’re a rock star, and you’re on top of it, because you gave them all this amazing information. And that’s going to mean more referrals, happier clients, more referrals, bigger sales, you see where I’m going, it kind of builds.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, I do see where you’re going. And it’s interesting. Like, I always thought that you couldn’t automate connection and rapport. But I think when that has changed over the last couple years, as I’ve really started to understand that like, that communication, even in email can still mean that you are taking care of somebody, especially if you’re being proactive. Like, I still think there’s a huge benefit to being in person and that kind of thing. But But that’s so much rapport can be built over email, and can be built over social media and things like that. But yeah, I just love that idea of, of putting together some of these things that are checking in and not saying I’m checking in, but here’s these resources. Here’s this, and I know that I’ve gotten out of some trouble it with my clients, like missing shots, or whatever, over the last couple years, because I’ve built rapport with them. So yeah, yeah, follow. Yeah, on it, I love it.

Melissa Rich
Another thing to think about building rapport and using automation, and this is another like, oh, I don’t know how I feel about that, Melissa. But I’m a big fan of it. I like to use custom fields, right. So a lot of CRMs have them, they are there for you to gather information from your clients, whatever you need, even if it’s not just name, date, so on and so forth. They’re called custom fields for a reason, right? Make them custom. Use them to your advantage. Don’t just gather names, and dates and location, gather their birthday, gather their favorite drink, gather, whatever, but you can fill cus as a photographer, and on the back end of your CRM, you can fill out those custom fields too, right. So like, if you go in, you can enter some information there. So you know, just using this example, because it’s one of my favorites. After every wedding that we photograph, my husband and I photographed, I would always on the way home, I would pop into dubsado. And in that custom field marked favorite moment from your wedding day, I would pop in what our favorite moment from their wedding day was using the voice that I would if I were texting them or having a conversation with them. Oh my gosh, it was your super sweet first look with your kiddos. And then the dog came and then snow started falling. And you know what I mean? Use that field. And so then the email goes out the next day, hey, awesome wedding. I think my favorite moment from your whole day was this. But it’s you’re using a custom field to populate it. So you’re not having to actually send the email, right, but you’re still adding touch, use things from their lead inquiry form, like what you love most about him or her or what you’re looking forward to most about their wedding day, use the custom fields and make them custom to really tweak and add to that automated experience. Yes, there are limitations. But if you use it the right way, it’s not going to bite you in the butt.

Dan Moyer
Wow. So you would come home from a wedding and you’re just like, oh, this like really amazing thing happened. And that custom field is already inputted in your email template that goes out the next day that just adds in there.

Melissa Rich
And it makes it makes it sound like I logged on the next day after their crazy 18 hour wedding to send this email. Nope, not really,

Dan Moyer
wow, that’s really thoughtful. You have to know your CRM pretty well, in order to be able to do that. So I mean, you you mentioned dubsado Is that the one that you’re the sort of love the most the favorite guru ish in,

Melissa Rich
I wouldn’t say that I’m loyal to anything I have. And I encourage you, I encourage you to like, just because you sign up for one tool, don’t feel like you have to stick with it if it’s not working with you, right. As a business owner, I have bounced from I think I’ve changed CRM six or seven times over the course of my photography career, right, which is a lot of a lot. But the reason that I changed just because the CRM or what it offered wasn’t serving me anymore, right? So I would get and set things up, use it for a couple years and be like this isn’t working, or it’s not working for my partner. It’s not how I like to see things, whatever it might be. And so then you find the one that works best for you. Part of that. And this is where a lot of photographers and a lot of creatives just dive in and jump in feet first and they’re like, Okay, let’s start using it and get in there and go, and then they get stuck, right? So many of your AMS offer live demo trainings, right like a live demo session or will migrate this for you or have shoot I was working with the Clintons brought the other day they have sprout school that will walk you through all the things steps. Otto has the dubsado setup checklist. You have to use that education from your CRM and become familiar with it and the more familiar with it you become the more confident you’ll feel like using some of those extra features. You know what I mean? And if you’re just getting started, start super basic with custom fields. Just start with the name and the location or the date until you feel Forget about it, and then move on to something else. And on top of that, it’s like a layering process.

Dan Moyer
I have been using tabi for a bunch of years before that I was using shoot Q, I don’t know if you remember that. Shoot Q was old school, I moved to tavae, like a bunch of years ago. And now as I’m moving more into the coaching space, especially, you know, working with individuals on, you know, work life balance, and all that kind of stuff. I’m curious if tavae is going to be the one that I stick with for that, because it’s a whole separate business. And I’ve played with dubsado, a little bit, and it’s just so pretty much the other thing, like it’s, it’s like really pretty, it’s really customizable, like there’s the scheduling part of it and stuff. So now, let’s take a quick detour, because you said you you have played with them all, you know, you don’t have brand loyalty. If you’re prepared for this, is there like certain things that you would say you’re like, let’s go. Is there certain things you’d say like each CRM is good for or like things you should look at? When you’re in the market for a CRM? Yeah, that’s a good question. I know, because there’s so many of them. Let me let me, let me narrow that down a little bit. Is there anything that when you’re like, I’m starting out, I’m in the market for CRM? What are the things that you think somebody should should consider when they’re looking for a CRM?

Melissa Rich
The biggest thing is how you work, right? And how you learn. And I say that I’m gonna, I’m not gonna throw him under the bus. But I’m gonna tell you a bit about my husband, Kyle. So he is just extremely talented, right? He’s got this big, beautiful, creative brain and i He’s so good at what he does. And I don’t have to tell him that because I have to let everybody else was he go up, you get to take the trash out. That’s how I am here, or that composition could have been done differently. But anyway, anyway, he is so extremely good at what he does, and he’s so creative, but he has dyslexia and ADD, right, which means that learning to use a CRM or any kind of tool or system to help him in his business is 10 times harder. I know so many other creatives feel the same way, right? I promise I’m not throwing him under the bus. He’s told me I can say these things. But when you’re looking for a CRM, one thing you have to keep in mind is how you work, right? So I personally in my business, I freaking loved tavae, because of all the numbers and the reporting, and all the automations and everything like that, but that’s how my brain works. Kyle hated it. Because it wasn’t a visual process, right? He needs something visual and colorful and something like that. And so you need to think about how your brain functions. If you are a visual person, don’t sign up for a CRM that’s going to be heavy on the numbers and the intricate details and everything’s a custom field, and everything’s custom when you can customize all the things, you want to sign up for something that is a little bit easier. So think about how you work. Think about the bare minimums. Right? We’re gonna go back to that what are the bare minimums that you need to get to and from your clients and that you need your CRM to sustain? So email functionality, right, sending contracts and invoices, we talked about those as being the bare minimums. But also, do you schedule meetings with your clients? If you do this, your CRM have a native scheduler, right? Does it have a task management tool that you can use? Does it have if you need if you want to provide a gallery within the same thing? Does it do that or not? Some tools will do a lot of things, and might not necessarily be the best at all of those things. They’ll excel in one place or another. So don’t feel like you have to pick a tool because it does do everything. But you want it to meet your bare minimum requirements, right? And then you’re like, Okay, most of it, how do I know if it actually meets those requirements? Right? How do I know what happens? Most CRMs on the market are going to have a free trial period, right? Sign up for that free trial. Reach out, ask them if somebody can walk you through how it works, play around with it. And when I say play around with it, don’t just dive in feet first and be like, Oh, okay, this is great. But now I don’t know what I’m doing. Right? Yeah, yeah, I Oh, I always recommend like when you’re in a trial period for one of these take one phase of your workflow, right? Even if it’s just that little initial inquiry phase of a workflow, plug those emails in, plug in the questionnaires in and test it that way. If you like how it functions, and if it works, great if you don’t try something else, and that’s okay.

Dan Moyer
Okay. Yeah, that was very loaded answer. All right. I want to I want to segue back to because we’ve talked about systems we’ve talked about, you know, organizing them from like, a big overwhelming thing to chunking them down, putting those into your CRM and managing them in there. And then being able to go to your CRM every day. And, you know, opening it up this one I have to do today. But there’s also things that are unpredictable, and requires you to be flexible. So I’m thinking you’re out with a client, like I have an engagement session this afternoon, and I’m coming home and edit the pictures, whatever but maybe they’re saying hey, can you send us some thoughts on save the dates? Or, or maybe it’s a mom saying, hey, I really need some information or mother or bride saying, hey, I really need some four by sixes Can you send me on how to do do that, or can you order those forms and send them to me or whatever? Like, there’s just these things that come at us that we’re not sure what to do. So how do we handle these, like, flexible things that come at us that are not part of the workflow, they’re outside of this workflow that we have, because we still have to handle them?

Melissa Rich
Again, first thing I’m going to say is take a deep breath right? Now I would get those emails in, and I would immediately be like, Oh, my God, the world’s falling down what’s happening? I don’t know what to do you know what I mean? That’s my gut reaction. No, but these are things it’s like building that contract up. These are things that you don’t yet know You need a system for until you need a system for it, you don’t know you need a clause in your contract until you need a clause in your contract. Right? So say you get a mom who wants four by six prints. And you’re like, Okay, great. I could do that for you. It depends on how you’re delivering photos, right? Are you delivering photos in a gallery that you can sync up to a lab so she can order them on her own? Or head? Does she know the exact photos that you want? And you place an order for them? Sometimes you gotta fake it till you make it. So that’s not the best answer from a systems person, right? You’re expecting. But sometimes you have to think on the fly and go on the fly. And then, in retrospect, be like, did that work? Was that functional? To work? Can I do that, again, was that repeatable? And if it was, then create a system out of that, or an email template that goes out to the mom after the engagement session that says, hey, a lot of moms have been interested in this, here’s how you can do this. Or here’s where you can do this. I’m a big fan of email templates. Even if there’s email templates here that don’t use in a workflow. It’s never going to hurt you to have one that you can refer to if you’re just trying to answer a question or anything like that. But workflows that are systems outside of workflows are tricky. Those are sometimes things that you can document and like a project management tool, like clickup, or asana and that kind of thing. Those are sometimes things that you can again, if you’re going for like I don’t have that, I don’t want that I want to go basic documented, and you’re not in your notes app, right, the steps you took to follow that. Ask around, if it’s your first time trying to order prints, don’t be afraid to ask your local community or a little or appear or somebody in a Facebook group. How do I do this? What do I do? And then take that and tweak it just and then build it based off of that?

Dan Moyer
Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I just, I sometimes think of like a catch all list where it’s like, okay, these are things that are like, outside of my, you know, wedding workflow, it’s like, oh, this person asked me to do this thing, or send them this thing, or that he’s like, Oh, I’m just going to add it in my like, notes. If I have like a random thought, like, Oh, I just want to reach out to this person. Right, and like, ask them about this thing that’s outside of a wedding or whatever. It’s like, oh, I just need to like a little spot that I can always go to. To put it in there.

Melissa Rich
I use my project management tool. And I literally have a list called brain dump. Where all of that goes, where I can put whatever is on my mind, I can assign it to myself assign a due date, so that way, it doesn’t fall off the radar. Some people don’t function like that don’t like project management tools. That’s okay. Put it on your calendar for next Thursday, say I need to follow up and reach out to this person. That’s how Kyle likes to do things because it’s visual, and he can literally set the reminder. Right? Yeah. So again, that kind of goes back to knowing how you work. When it comes to like anticipating things that you don’t know you need in cash. That’s a big list right? of things you don’t know you need a business until you know you need it. Yeah, huge list, Josh, where to start things to think about money management, you and I have talked about this one a little bit as well, too. You start your business, you start getting this money, and it all goes into one account, you’re like, Yes, I’m rolling in the dough

Dan Moyer
just for that wedding.

Melissa Rich
And then April comes around and the taxman is like you owe me this many dollars. And you’re like, you have to have a money management system, you have to have to, you need to have like a backup system. And that might sound silly, but like backup, in terms of cards and files, and cloud storage, and all of that. There are photographers that are of the mindset that I don’t need to keep those files after I deliver them, whatever, I can delete them, and that’s fine. And there are photographers who just buy new cards instead of formatting the ones. Right, what works for you, I recommend always having at least one backup, but you need to make you need to think about developing a system for how to back that up. And when you back it up, and when does it go from this to this and that to that in this to this? And then not only that, but which clients have worked through that process. You know what I mean? Go through that process on a pretty, pretty consistent basis. Am I gonna say annual because there should be more than that. But consistent basis, posing? Yeah. A system outside of workflows, right? Come up with a posing workflow, something that will save your butt if you are not feeling well, but you still have to knock the session out of the park, right? You don’t want to be stumbling around for poses and a lot of feedback. I get when I tell people to come up with opposing workflow they’re like, but then everything’s gonna look the same. Not if you’re in it, you know, different people write different people react to things differently. And if you’re not a big poser, then come up with a list of prompts. Right? So in our business we liked oh, gosh, what are they called? We like to use wedding photography prompts, what were they something feels,

Dan Moyer
super feels, super feel feels. Yeah,

Melissa Rich
we instead of posing, we came up with a list of Emeka say, a list, but like a sequence of super fields that we knew would elicit great responses from our clients over and over and over again. And then we did those at the same time for each of our sessions. And people might be like, but then your photos are gonna look the same. And those are going to be boring. One people are relying on you to deliver right. One of you have to repeat, two people make things different and are going to react differently. Right, but then you’re never stumbling and wondering what to come next. And what do I have you do now and smile and look at the camera for the 100th time?

Dan Moyer
Yeah, yeah. And we all have like, even if it’s not super fields, we all have things that we go to and say, it’s just making an intentional about like, Oh, I’m going to use this and say it and having it here that like you don’t get stuck, right. Like there’s, like, always things that I say a different parts of the day, and it gets people different reactions for different people. But yeah, it gets people I have to deliver and I have to, like get people to be like, I tend to go for the, you know, shiny, happy, like laughing people and instead of like the Moody, like cheek to cheek on, like, really into each other like, Posey. So like, but I still have to have a system that brings people to this place of like, wow, we’re super happy that, you know, it’s rainy and gross outside and I still like, like they I still have to pull that out of them. Even when it’s, you know, potentially going to thunderstorm or whatever, right behind me.

Melissa Rich
You’re so right. Like having that system makes you feel better. Right? Because you know, there’s you don’t have to worry about it, too. Yeah, your clients are gonna think you’re a rock star because you didn’t even skip a step. Right? Yeah. And then think about all the people around you watching. Wow, he’s really got it together. He’s really like, just run through of it and rolling with the punches. Can I have your card, you know what I mean? Like little things like that lead to bigger results for your business. So I’m a I’m a big fan of that big fan of that.

Dan Moyer
There’s one theme that keeps like running through everything that you’re saying. And it’s knowing how you work. It’s like really being very self aware. And I think for like young photographers, young business owners, young creatives, even like through the the middle middle ages, that sounds funny, he even through like, the middle years of business owning, you know, I can’t even say that I feel like it’s like, you always just have to sort of like taste different things. You have to like, just keep trying different stuff. Because, like I’m at where I’m at now, because I’ve tried so many things, right. Like I had a photobooth business for a while I had a photography associate studio for a while. I did IPs, like hard for several years where I was doing like, this is going to be it I was making full bank and all that stuff. Now, I was shooting burn for a while I was you know, just solo for a while now I try to shoot with the second person all the time, I just tasted all different kinds of things. And then it’s only after like a long time of really tasting things and saying what do I really want? And what kind of life do I want? Can you start to design systems around, you’re like where you want your life to go. Like right now, I know the kind of money I can make with IPS. I just don’t want to spend that much time going out to people’s houses or whatever. Because I just want to spend more time with my family. So I’m less inclined to like do that extra stuff. Because I just, I just want to like hanging out my kids and my wife. And my friends. That’s

Melissa Rich
amazing and beautiful thing about that is if you ever decide that you want to do IPs or need to do you have the system in place. The great thing I love that you mentioned this, do different things, try different things. Figure out who you are. Yes, your systems will grow with you. They will change with you. That is Oh kay you don’t have to do not It’s not like just like your website, don’t build it once and then forget about it, right? update it, tweak it constantly go in and change it. busy season is here, right? It’s October and every all the photographers that I know are just bonkers nuts up to their eyeballs right? It is here. Right now when things aren’t the craziest is when those systems are going to fail you right you’ll know if they’re working or you know if they are not working. And if they’re not working you know that come slow season come January, February, you got some updating to do because you don’t want to go through this again or feel this way again next fall.

Dan Moyer
Right, right. Yeah, if nothing. The question I always love to ask myself and even some of my coaching clients is if nothing changes between now and next year, if nothing at all changes with your system with your life with how you’re feeling. Are you going to be okay with being at the same spot next year? Right? If so, if that answer is yes Cool, awesome, because sometimes the answer is yes. But a lot of times the answer’s no. That okay, then what can we do to get from point A to point B and make it so that next year, you don’t feel the same way?

Melissa Rich
Exactly. Systems are the are the key to that tweaking them, updating them, implementing new ones, kicking them out, kicking out the old ones?

Dan Moyer
Yeah, writing them down, writing them down, just have a moment for writing them down. Getting them out of here and putting them on paper,

Melissa Rich
you are the only one that will know what’s going on up there. Ever. And if you like, you can’t grow a team. If it’s all up here in your brain, and you can’t scale and you can’t have somebody step in if they need to. If it’s all up there in your brain. And sometimes your brain is so tired. You can’t sort out a freebie from left from right from what time of day is that? Or what did I have for dinner? You know what I mean? Writing it down and documenting it gives you it’s like a map it tells you exactly what to do when what turn to take. So there’s no second guessing there’s no getting lost. There’s no driving into the ocean, because GPS told you to drive into the ocean. You know what I mean? Like?

Dan Moyer
Yeah, yeah, I, I think that I think that as creatives and I feel like you’re talking about sort of like the benefits of like, why systemize why get it out of your brain, let me tell you that the years that it in like the middle where I was doing a lot of changing a lot of doing different stuff, and testing are the years where I made mistakes, because I was just all over the place. And, you know, I’m not where I’m at now, because I did lots of stuff. And I made lots of mistakes. I’m not where I’m at now, because everything was awesome. And I crushed it, like i The one thing I’m really good at is is people like I’m really good with my clients, I formulate these deep relationships and all that stuff. But the I think I’m where I’m at now because of the mistakes that I’ve made. But I think like being able to get that stuff out of my head. And for creatives to get the stuff out of their head to be able to enjoy the other parts of their life. Not that their business is on autopilot, but being able to enjoy the other parts of your life. And then when it’s time to show up and turn it on for a session or for a client or whatever, you have the brain capacity to do it. Right

Melissa Rich
100% And it keeps you in the zone lets you stay focused, I have a I just finished up a build a CRM built for a client boudoir photographer, and she’s been in the business for 18 years, she’s never documented her system. She has a tiny little kiddo history. She’s due any day now with her next baby, right? And she’s like, Melissa, I need help. And so you think people think that systems won’t save some time and people think that systems aren’t like, it’s going to take me more time to set that up, then it’s going to be worth this sweet, sweet, amazing woman who’s about to go on maternity leave, gotten nearly a month of her life back by getting by getting her systems in place. We’re talking time saved writing emails from scheduling things from doing this from doing that, like, let me give you a month while you’re getting ready to go on maternity leave. So you don’t have to worry about that. Let your system take over the amount of like relief that she had just by getting systems up and like running, I don’t care if I did it. Or if somebody else did it, whoever’s doing it, you can do it. You know what I mean? Like, they save you so much time and she is so much less overwhelmed. And she is able to enjoy her kiddo and not worry about anything. Because she’s got things running in the background. Like just you can’t you can’t beat it. You know, you can’t. You can’t beat it.

Dan Moyer
Yeah, you mentioned that you did a CRM build for somebody. And before I let you share about how people can work with you and find out more about you. I want to know if you have any sort of like Final thoughts or or things that you want to like tied together from this episode. Big Questions. I know sorry.

Melissa Rich
No, I think I think the gist of it is, is that you have to keep it simple, right? Don’t overcomplicate it, systems don’t have to be hard. It can be as simple as like if you’re not into CRM, a Google doc full of email templates that you then copy into your Gmail to schedule the sent. It can be as simple as a list on your notes app that you copy and create a new one for each client to get on the list. Right? Keep it simple. Again, know how you work. Don’t build systems that are unrealistic for how you work or don’t use a tool that’s unrealistic for how you like to learn or process things, right. Your systems can grow with you, they should grow with you. They should change with you as you evolve and change as a photographer, they should grow and change. Don’t just buy a template and put it into your CRM, you gotta update that baby. Yeah, update it. So it sounds like you and not like I would buy a template from you, Daniel, but I don’t want to sound like you. I want to sound like me. You know what I update that template, one step at a time. And honestly, consistency is key, like using something over and over and over again to bring Kyle up again. I still run the back end of his sports photography and corporate event business, right? He’s got beautiful systems in place, right?

Dan Moyer
Because of course he does. You did.

Melissa Rich
Right but we still uses it, we still use a project management tool. And he tells me most I stopped using this tool. I said, Okay, he said, I’m so lost, I don’t know what to do. I said, You got to start using it, you got to keep using it. Because that’s the only way that you’re going to not feel just completely overwhelmed. It’s just consistency. It doesn’t have to be perfect, right? systems don’t have to be perfect. They can be as simple as this. These are the two emails that I have right now. Is that good enough? Yes, that’s great enough, you can always add to it. And don’t worry about things like misfiring or triggering wrong or going to the wrong person that might happen, especially if you’re setting things up on your own. And that’s okay. But your clients are never going to be mad about you trying to serve them better. Right? If you explain, hey, I’m trying this new system. I’m figuring out how it works. Still, I’m just trying to give you a better experience. They’re gonna be like, Oh, whatever. That’s great. Yeah.

Dan Moyer
Oh, like one, I just want to thank you for your knowledge. But to like, you can tell that, that not that this comes easy for you. But that one, I think it does come easy for you, like you can wrap your brain around this but it to me, I’m I don’t have a systems brain, it takes me a long time to find something that works. And I’ve tried lots of different systems. I’ve tried lots of different stuff and ways to organize. And I finally found something inside using notion and read this book called building a second brain. And fascinating book, but it’s like, it’s just like, I have a lot of thoughts, and they’re always there and have lots of ideas. And I would get anxious because I couldn’t find them. And and I think you just you took away some of the overwhelm about it, you took away some of the mystery about it, I think gave hopefully I think, you know, some of the listeners will come away with like, a renewed sense to like, okay, it doesn’t have to be like this big thing from, you know, ending this workflow here. And you know, if there’s a yes, there’s a no and this branch goes over this way. And this event triggers this event. It’s like, yeah, it could be that. But it also was just like, here’s the things I know, I’m going to do. Let me just write them down. So I’m making sure that I’m doing them and everybody gets a great experience.

Melissa Rich
Do you know my favorite way to build systems that?

Dan Moyer
Show me Oh, is this sticky notes. Sticky Notes sticky.

Melissa Rich
Heck, if you are a visual person, one last tip, if you’re a visual person, write every step of your workflow down on a sticky note. streak it out on the wall, see what you’re missing? Reorder if you need to, and then build out

Dan Moyer
all of that. Okay, so how can individuals find out more value follow you work with you? What do you offer hit us.

Melissa Rich
So I am on Instagram, most of the time Facebook sometimes as Virtually Done systems. Just like it sounds just like it sounds. I am Melissa at Virtually Done systems.com website is virtually done. systems.com. Sometimes I wish I had come up with a shorter name, because it’s a mouthful sometimes. But that’s all those places search for me. And you’ll find me there. People can work with me in a couple of different ways. I like to do system strategy sessions. So if a client is having like, hey, Melissa, I built this workflow. I’m not sure if it’s functioning right. Can you come in and like be the teacher to check my homework? Yeah, absolutely. Or if you’re troubleshooting this or aren’t you’re right, that works. Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s absolutely work together for like 90 minutes or whatever I do Done For You CRM builds. Big question I get is what does that mean? What CRM is it? I haven’t found a CRM that I haven’t built in yet. Oh. So sprout tavae dubsado HoneyBook 17 hats, you name it, I’ve worked in, except by all of the above, essentially done for you is, hey, let’s walk through your workflow together. If you’re not sure what you want dream big. If you hire somebody like me to help you build your workflows, shoot for the stars, because then I’ll step in and create all the collateral, the email the schedulers, the copy of the pricing guides, the whole thing, implement it, teach you how to work it, so you’re not like, but what if I break it, you’re not gonna break it,

Dan Moyer
and follow along? Awesome.

Melissa Rich
It’s gonna be fine. Those are how we can work together. But I’m also like, a complete open book if people have questions about what CRM is why might work best? Or how about this? Or what about that? Or what do you think of this? I’m unbiased, I’m an open book. I’m an answer to all the questions I believe in community over competition and sharing everything I’ve got and I’m one of those people you’re you’re an amazing creative photographer. I have to have a science and a formula to create photos you know what I mean? My brain works like this. It doesn’t work like that so I can help balance it out.

Dan Moyer
I feel like I’m gonna have to go back into this episode and take a whole bunch of notes because like I actually am taking notes right now as we were going through this because this is something that I think is so this whole series is called missing ingredients right this episode this episode is part of this larger series that everybody knows about pricing presets and sales boat like that’s that’s what everybody thinks that running a photography businesses. That’s what I think a lot of edge caterers will sell maybe some templates, whatever. But there’s these things that I think are required that are not talked about enough to run a successful business. And I think you have really demystified and clarified what what systems are and that they’re not this big, huge workflow thing. That’s hundreds of steps. And so, for that, I’m very thankful that you were on the show today and thank you for sharing your knowledge and, and all that good stuff. Appreciate you.

Melissa Rich
Thank you for having so much fun.